#1

I suck

in PB Guitarstudio FORUMS Tue Nov 13, 2012 8:42 pm
by Cormac • 12 Posts

Hi everyone. Firstly, I just wanna say that the Pebber Brown YouTube channel and this forum are an awesome resource, and it's nice to meet you all.

I've been working through some of the left hand technique videos for the last few weeks, and they have really helped a lot. I hadn't practised properly for a couple of years, and prior to that I was just a ropey blues rock player anyway. The trills, spiders and ladders etc have really given me the kick up the ass I needed, and I've been practising my reading, ear-training, improv and scales/harmony too. I've been trying to take a balanced approach, and after putting in a lot of work since August I can really see an improvement, but I can also see what is it that is holding me back.

My fourth finger is an idiot.

Now while it has improved somewhat, it's definitely a big problem for me. I spent years just playing Clapton and Hendrix licks, and as such never developed much strength or co-ordination. I particularly have a problem with trill exercises starting on the 2nd and 3rd finger.

In practical terms this stops me from playing diatonic scales with proper technique, at any kind of reasonable speed. I also find chromatic exercises fall apart pretty quickly as I speed them up.

Can you recommend any particular exercises or methods? I can see which of the trills and and ladders I struggle with the most - If I develop co-ordination with them will it help my regular playing?

I had been thinking about simplifying my practise routine for a few weeks and just concentrating on my 4th finger trills untill they catch up with the rest? Would you recommend this approach?

Thanks for your help.

Cormac

Scroll up

#2

RE: I suck

in PB Guitarstudio FORUMS Tue Nov 13, 2012 11:21 pm
by nickjacquet (deleted)
avatar

As far as trill are concerned...find the weakest fingers and run them through the trill meat grinder EVERY DAY.

For instance, I realized that not only were my ring and pinky fingers weaker/less controllable than my pointer and middle they are also much thinner than either my middle or ring...so I start off every day as such...

10min pinky 10 min ring 10min pinky 10 min ring
e|--5p0h5p0-|--4p0h4p0---|---------------------------|
b|-------------------------------|-5p0h5p0-|-4p0h4p0-|
g|-----------------------------------------------------------|
a|------continue w/ 10 min on both pinky and ring -|
d|------------------for each string------------------------|
e|-----------------EVERY DAY!!!--------------------------|

Thats 2 hours every day for all 6 strings doing open string ring and open string pinky trill...(they dont always have to be from 2nd position like example above) everntually these to will become obsolete for me and I can move on to some more harmonically complex forms of warming up.

I have noticed an improvement in my playing that is like the difference btw/ night and day from doing this stuff...Yea it can be pretty dry and maddening at times...yes it looks retarded to my brothers and mother when they see me doing this every day...But it is worth it...I will continue to do this every day untill my ring and pinky are the same thinkness as my middle and pointer fingers...and I will not stop warming up w/ these untill I can comfortably maintain each trill as sets of 8 at 120-ish B.P.M. (with thumb behind neck obv.)...and once I get to that point...the monotony will be no longer necessary as the left hands anatomy/physiology will have been permanantly and physically altered for optimum use...After that I will alter that aspect of my daily ritual (previous to the first 2 hours of pinky and ring open string trill, this part of my regimen was the Segovia scale book as multiple tuplet runs through it every day untill I felt that further analysis of Segovias Major scale/Melodic minor scale forms was for me obsolete)


"Sarod floats like a butterfly...But it stings like when I trill"-Old Shed Proverb

Last edited Tue Nov 13, 2012 11:23 pm | Scroll up

#3

RE: I suck

in PB Guitarstudio FORUMS Tue Nov 13, 2012 11:32 pm
by nickjacquet (deleted)
avatar

One more thing I forgot to add*

After the two hours of left hand work...once the left hand is good and loose/exhausted....then set it and the guitar down...and start trainng your piking hand for Sarod by doing dumbell weight exercises as are outlined in mr. FrakH's Sarod youtube vids...after a day of these things...rinse wash and repeat untill you can trill and Sarod like Pebber and FrakH...Thats what I am doing and I could not be more happy with the progress being made (-: As always....Pebber & FrakH, I hope to hear from either/both of you guys for your two cents on this thread...


"Sarod floats like a butterfly...But it stings like when I trill"-Old Shed Proverb

Last edited Tue Nov 13, 2012 11:32 pm | Scroll up

#4

RE: I suck

in PB Guitarstudio FORUMS Tue Nov 13, 2012 11:35 pm
by nickjacquet (deleted)
avatar

Also one more thing...yeah this stuff can make you go looney... but the reward is that these exercises will chip away at your anatomical guitar playing constraints and in that regard they will liberate you to play whatever you want down the road...For the rest of your life (-: So in that regard, they are 10,000% worth the time they take


"Sarod floats like a butterfly...But it stings like when I trill"-Old Shed Proverb

Last edited Tue Nov 13, 2012 11:36 pm | Scroll up

#5

RE: I suck

in PB Guitarstudio FORUMS Wed Nov 14, 2012 12:39 am
by condoriano • 28 Posts

trying to play the piano has greatly helped my fingers strength and dextarity.

Scroll up

#6

RE: I suck

in PB Guitarstudio FORUMS Thu Nov 15, 2012 10:33 am
by Cormac • 12 Posts

Thanks for the tips. My third finger is ok so I've just been concentrating on my fourth finger for now.

I've also started doing 2 finger trills on all sets that use my fourth finger. 2-4 and 3-4 are brutally slow and uncoordinated for now. If I try to do about 1 hour on each set will this help out my technique?

I just want to see what you guys think so I know I'm not wasting my time.

Scroll up

#7

RE: I suck

in PB Guitarstudio FORUMS Thu Nov 15, 2012 2:08 pm
by condoriano • 28 Posts

yes, i think you will be surprised how quickly you will improve using thoes trills. also when doing trills, as with most of the time in general, remember to keep the fingers curved so that the tips, not the pads, are making contact with the strings. i personally feel that anything done on the giutar that presents a challenge also presents an oppertunity to improve greatly. the harder the challenge the greater the reward.

Scroll up

#8

RE: I suck

in PB Guitarstudio FORUMS Thu Nov 15, 2012 3:34 pm
by dlraben • 278 Posts

Nick,

Zitat
Thats 2 hours every day for all 6 strings doing open string ring and open string pinky trill...



Goodness that sounds sadistic! I understand the benefit of going nuts daily on trills, but not just on pinky-open or third-open...

Zitat
and I will not stop warming up w/ these untill I can comfortably maintain each trill as sets of 8 at 120-ish B.P.M.



...but, 8-tuples at 120 bpm (or 16ths at 240 bpm) is ridiculously fast! Can you post a video of this MIND BENDING speed with pinky-open? I suppose if I can see someone do that for a decent amount of time, clean, at a speed even close to that I'd be convinced that I need to focus on the more basic trills for longer periods of time instead of running through the permutations of all finger combinations in shorter bursts.

Video, pretty please? Just pinky-open for a sustained period. Even if it's a bit short of 8s at 120, I'd like to see what that type of effort is producing. I'd be forever grateful.

Scroll up

#9

RE: I suck

in PB Guitarstudio FORUMS Fri Nov 16, 2012 6:18 pm
by nickjacquet (deleted)
avatar

There is no quick fix on this stuff...I said that I plan on continuing in this fashion UNTIL I get to that point, (at that point I will feel reasonably confident that my fingers grasp this area of technique...I'll make a vid nonetheless showing where I am at tonight...(-:


"Sarod floats like a butterfly...But it stings like when I trill"-Old Shed Proverb

Scroll up

#10

RE: I suck

in PB Guitarstudio FORUMS Fri Nov 16, 2012 6:47 pm
by nickjacquet (deleted)
avatar

Getting fired up /warmed up A.T.M...I'll upload the vid in a couple hours after both hands brought into the game & am nice and stretchy...The benefits of trill are significant...I'll make sure to include trill stuff that is more than 1 finger to...(bigger than 8 tuplet scalely trill-stuffs).


"Sarod floats like a butterfly...But it stings like when I trill"-Old Shed Proverb

Scroll up

#11

RE: I suck

in PB Guitarstudio FORUMS Fri Nov 16, 2012 6:59 pm
by nickjacquet (deleted)
avatar

besides...I've been stuck at my retail job for most/if not all of this week (managment trainee's get bombarded with hours) and I have really been getting the itch for woodshed.


"Sarod floats like a butterfly...But it stings like when I trill"-Old Shed Proverb

Last edited Fri Nov 16, 2012 7:00 pm | Scroll up

#12

RE: I suck

in PB Guitarstudio FORUMS Fri Nov 16, 2012 10:56 pm
by uderoche (deleted)
avatar

If you do the trills, ladders, and spider exercises daily, and begin to practice the licks the proper way, it will come around for you. Best advice is to stop playing it the wrong way. Stop that completely. Play it only the correct way. And do the exercises.


-Ursin

Scroll up

#13

RE: I suck

in PB Guitarstudio FORUMS Fri Nov 16, 2012 11:34 pm
by nickjacquet (deleted)

"Sarod floats like a butterfly...But it stings like when I trill"-Old Shed Proverb

Scroll up

#14

RE: I suck

in PB Guitarstudio FORUMS Sat Nov 17, 2012 12:09 am
by deltadiscos • 310 Posts

Okay you may have to wait for the experts to get proper feedback

well done on putting up a video
but my take on it is this

firstly cant really here the video to well

At the beginning you keep dropping your thumb down, dont do that
and you have your right shoulder slumped down not gonna help your technique

also you keep picking you shouldn't need to keep picking the trills
and don't play faster than you can this is a strength building exercise

if you have an acoustic i recommend you trill on that

also don't spend to much time on one exercise
like do the first two rows of trill 7.21, 7.22 aim for 5 minutes each
do that for a week or two then move on too the next 7.23, 7.24

and keep moving through like that when you come round to starting them all over again
you will have improved and doubled your strength
also keep checking back here to get your technique checked

just my opinions
but keep it up


Last edited Sat Nov 17, 2012 12:09 am | Scroll up

#15

RE: I suck

in PB Guitarstudio FORUMS Sat Nov 17, 2012 2:32 am
by condoriano • 28 Posts

here is a video of some trills.

http://youtu.be/j5_leEmmvsg

Scroll up

#16

RE: I suck

in PB Guitarstudio FORUMS Sat Nov 17, 2012 5:37 am
by dlraben • 278 Posts

Thanks to you both for sharing your videos. I'm withholding criticism since I suck and I didn't post anything of my own. Both of these things mean I should keep my mouth shut.

I will offer though that when I practice trills (or anything really), I try to keep two things at the very top of my priority list. First, the tone I'm producing has to be clean (either with or without distortion). Second, I have to be playing it in time. Without both of these things, no one is going to want to hear what I'm doing. Both of these things mean I have to play kind of slow, but whatever, it's WAY easier to tell when you're getting better this way. If I'm ever not clean, or not in time, I STOP AND SLOW DOWN.

Scroll up

#17

RE: I suck

in PB Guitarstudio FORUMS Sat Nov 17, 2012 8:45 am
by dlraben • 278 Posts

I decided I'd better share too. This is how I started to warm up this morning. It's mostly 6s at 100 bpm concentrating on tone and timing. I don't really know what my maximum speed is, but for me that isn't really the point. I feel I need to work on shifting (strings and positions) in time. Criticism would be appreciated.

http://youtu.be/YcjSxa7odcg

Scroll up

#18

RE: I suck

in PB Guitarstudio FORUMS Sat Nov 17, 2012 10:06 am
by condoriano • 28 Posts

dlraben: looks and sounds really good and consistent. have you tried baring with the first finger while sfifting strings with trills?

Scroll up

#19

RE: I suck

in PB Guitarstudio FORUMS Sat Nov 17, 2012 7:53 pm
by FRaKh • 320 Posts

Your routine may change from time to time.....just stick with the daily routine from Pebber until you can become comfortable with it. Then after maybe a couple of years change it in order to maximize the time needed on what you are weak on. OR work on the items you are about to excel at. It takes a long time of practicing in order to come up with your own routine. So for now....use what Pebber has on pdf's and that will be an great GREAT start.

Like always I advertise the trill and Sarod Hybrid-one part scalpel one part Sarod. You cant go wrong with the trill. Also you should be writing out the scale patterns with a pencil...10 times each per day. This will be the basics...my opinion.

On a more advanced note...for me....I organize all of my routines according to symmetric patterns. I really try to change it up so I am always challenged with certain fingerings that screw with me. I then apply the daily routine to these patterns rather than sticking to a scale definition. That is what would be my routine...but I have been playing for a while so I understand what the attributes are and how to find them for my own practice routine. That would be an example of changing a routine for your own benefit.
Just stick to the daily routine....you will not go wrong.


“A World Without String Is Chaos”

Randolf Smuntz

Scroll up

#20

RE: I suck

in PB Guitarstudio FORUMS Sun Nov 18, 2012 4:58 pm
by Cormac • 12 Posts

I thought I would upload a video to get some feedback:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uKh4_Y33DrI&feature=g-upl

FraKh, I think I will be using Pebber's routine as my guide over the next couple of years, but as you can see my 4th finger trills are pretty poor right now. Do you think it would be a good idea to concentrate on these for a few weeks, or maybe a month or two until they catch up with the other fingers? I still find time every day to do some reading and ear-training, as well as practising with a band.

Scroll up

#21

RE: I suck

in PB Guitarstudio FORUMS Sun Nov 18, 2012 6:16 pm
by Debilius • 96 Posts

Cool video man... very well shot for analyzing...

My first humble suggestion would be to try to curve your fingers more, especially your pinky while doing 0-4 trill (open string - pinky). Also, while doing 0-4 trill, try to curve other fingers closer to strings and try to do less "non-sympathetic" motions with other fingers while hammering with the pinky. Also, if you have doubts about the amount of pinky curvature it should mimic the pinky curvature from 1/2/3-4 trill (1st, 2nd and 3rd fingers fretted and trill is happening between the 3rd and 4th finger).

Also, try to fret 1st,2nd and 3rd finger on the string above, or below(for example, if you're on 1st string, fret other 3 fingers on 2nd string, and if you're doing 0-4 trill on second string fret the string above, the 1st string) and try to do a trill, or even fret other fingers 2 strings above, or below... or on 3 different strings above, or below etc... And even more, try to curve other 3 fingers under the neck while doing the trill with your pinky on the 1st string...

On your 1-4 trill your 2nd finger is way outside, but your 3rd finger is doing nice parallel sympathetic motion... also watch that non-sympathetic motion of your ring finger while doing 1/2-4 trill. Also, try to keep the curvature of the fretted fingers steady while doing trills with your pinky.

And yes, it would be very good idea to concentrate on this while you learn your left hand a new habit. And very important... apply this on your overall playing. Try to do all of this way slower than in your video to really let your concentration manage the optimal amount of tension of hammer ons and pull-offs and it's optimal motions. And congratulations man, you started to work on very important thing in your playing.


Last edited Sun Nov 18, 2012 6:18 pm | Scroll up

#22

RE: I suck

in PB Guitarstudio FORUMS Sun Nov 18, 2012 6:38 pm
by Cormac • 12 Posts

Thanks for the awesome and detailed feedback! It is very much appreciated and makes complete sense. Thanks.

Scroll up

#23

RE: I suck

in PB Guitarstudio FORUMS Sun Nov 18, 2012 6:45 pm
by Debilius • 96 Posts

I'm glad if it helps. You're welcome.

Scroll up

#24

RE: I suck

in PB Guitarstudio FORUMS Mon Nov 19, 2012 5:20 am
by dlraben • 278 Posts

Cormac - take my opinion with a grain of salt as well, but in my opinion you may want to consider using your left forearm more in an almost vibrato type motion when you trill. It appears as if you are using your fingers almost exclusively. If you add in movement from your left arm, while using your thumb as a pivot, I think you'll get more power and consistency in your trills. Well, at least I've found that I can get more power and consistency in mine.

Scroll up

#25

RE: I suck

in PB Guitarstudio FORUMS Mon Nov 19, 2012 5:28 am
by FRaKh • 320 Posts

Normal....no huge problems see besides the fact you just started training your fingers.

Yes curve your fingers more when you are practicing the trill.

The one thing you have to really..REALLY get down is when you practice for your technique you MUST practice with as perfect technique as you can. That means ultra slow if need be. Curve your fingers in like a claw to the point of almost cramping. Keep them tight and try to ISOLATE the fingers you are moving.

We all screw up our technique especially in a live situation. I screw up all the time. LOL.
BuT I will never stop training my fingers in hopes of perfect technique. Thats a lifetime of work...you will never stop...hehe.

I have problems with my pinky as well. But I still work at it.

Have the mind set that you will never reach an end as far as daily practice routines. You just dont....you will always tweek it....fix it....ect. Its a solid foundation for you to use as a guide.

Good video


“A World Without String Is Chaos”

Randolf Smuntz

Scroll up


Visitors
0 Members and 4 Guests are online.

We welcome our newest member: jkiger
guest counter
Today were 209 (yesterday 285) guests and 1 (yesterday 2) members online.

Board Statistics
The forum has 809 topics and 7800 posts.

1 member has been online today :
Horpievetesor