#1

Diatonic chord fuctions in modes?

in PB Guitarstudio FORUMS Sat Sep 15, 2012 5:21 pm
by nickjacquet (deleted)
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As a premiss to this question, I would like to state that I beleive I have a complete tonal framework for Major and minor scales (and the chords they make)

Obviously in a Major context:

I-tonic function
ii-dominant prep
III-tonic
IV-Dominant Prep
V-Dominant
VI-Dominant prep/deceptive Dominant resolution
vii*-Dominant

As far as I understand while the quality and types of the diatonic chords in minor contexts will differ from their partners from the Major scale, as far as I can tell the functions of the 1-7 chords in minor such as tonic/dom prep/dominant are not dissimilar from the major scale.

But when It comes to tertiary stuctures from Non-major/non-minor scale contexts I am a bit in the dark...

The only thing that I have encountered regarding chords and their functions where modes are mentioned are for instance, the use of a Major IV in a minor context or when using say a vii7 (fully diminished) to tonicize a Major Key. (Mode mixture)

But as far as a listing of the diatonic chord structures from these weird phrygian, Locrian, Lydian-Dominant, or whatever scales, everyone seems to be silent as to the harmonic functions that these scales create when their memebers are stacked in thirds. This leads me to beleive that when it comes to modes, the knowledge of people ends at the spelling of the scale.

All single note improvised wankery that people claim to be "modal" aside, I am wondering how the chords of these things function.


"Sarod floats like a butterfly...But it stings like when I trill"-Old Shed Proverb

Last edited Sat Sep 15, 2012 5:22 pm | Scroll up

#2

RE: Diatonic chord fuctions in modes?

in PB Guitarstudio FORUMS Sat Sep 15, 2012 5:54 pm
by nickjacquet (deleted)
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typo alert* the major scale posses a iii chord not a III chord.


"Sarod floats like a butterfly...But it stings like when I trill"-Old Shed Proverb

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#3

RE: Diatonic chord fuctions in modes?

in PB Guitarstudio FORUMS Sat Sep 15, 2012 6:07 pm
by pebberbrown • 878 Posts

See file


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Multi_Chord_Scales.pdf Multi_Chord_Scales.pdf
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#4

RE: Diatonic chord fuctions in modes?

in PB Guitarstudio FORUMS Sat Sep 15, 2012 6:35 pm
by nickjacquet (deleted)
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This tells the quality and type of the chords. That is something that can be opined just from taking a look at the scales themselves. In a Major/Minor scale tonal framework much of western music can be explained by I-x-V-I where x is the thematic meat of the progression. But when people start blathering on and on about Songs or parts of tunes saying things like "oh this measure is in C# Phrygian and this bar is clearly Blah blah locrian" I dont understand how I am supposed to render any type of meaningful harmonic analysis of such passages based on such conjectures. In a normal tonal framework I can look at it and say "oh well, this passage clearly is made of say a I(6/4)-V as a way of cadencing. So I can hear in my head the logical thing that will immediately follow such a passage, (And if need be, write the harmonic analysis under the staves on the sheet-music of the piece.) But when people start talking about modal shit, I cannot hear in my head what the things that they are talking about would sound like, plus I have difficulty relating to what they mean. How does telling me "Oh yea, this bar is clearly C# phrygian" tell me anything about the actuall harmonic underpinnings of the passages. It seems like all that they are telling me to expect and hear from a passage is that there will be mostly A's, B's, D's, E's, and that the F's,C's, and G's will be sharps. If all I cared about was key signatures, I wouldn't be interested in trying to engage in meaningful harmonic analysis


"Sarod floats like a butterfly...But it stings like when I trill"-Old Shed Proverb

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#5

RE: Diatonic chord fuctions in modes?

in PB Guitarstudio FORUMS Sun Sep 16, 2012 6:41 am
by oddbaugh • 16 Posts

You could try music school.

And playing scales slowly over backing tracks (like 'A' Major/F# minor over C#m7) to learn the sound. I just started doing this.

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#6

RE: Diatonic chord fuctions in modes?

in PB Guitarstudio FORUMS Sun Sep 16, 2012 10:30 pm
by pebberbrown • 878 Posts

" But when people start blathering on and on about Songs or parts of tunes saying things like "oh this measure is in C# Phrygian and this bar is clearly Blah blah locrian" I dont understand how I am supposed to render any type of meaningful harmonic analysis of such passages based on such conjectures.

"This bar is clearly BLAH BLAH Locrian." Yeah I can see that you dont have meaningful harmonic analysis.

Based on your statment - who knows what the hell it means?

If you are dealing with people who DONT KNOW what they are doing or have a semi-marginal sense of theory - they tend to communicate in this manner. At that point you have to figure out what the hell they are actually inferring!

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#7

RE: Diatonic chord fuctions in modes?

in PB Guitarstudio FORUMS Thu Sep 20, 2012 12:27 pm
by Slashiepie • 118 Posts

You mean you end up coming down to the conclusion that a supposedly modal song is either in a Major or a Minor key, because sooner or later a dominant chord kicks in or a cadence gives it away by defining a minor or major tonality?

And you probably mean people keep giving explanations about how a song is in the phrygian mode just because the melody or the harmony starts on the 3rd Degree of the scale / mediant chord ?

*shruggs* It happens, people get into huge arguments because of it... modes is the n word of the music theoricists.. peace.


Last edited Thu Sep 20, 2012 12:34 pm | Scroll up

#8

RE: Diatonic chord fuctions in modes?

in PB Guitarstudio FORUMS Fri Sep 21, 2012 5:49 am
by uderoche (deleted)
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Musicians always try to over-complicate theory. Specifically, guitarists enjoy over-complicating the modes. Generally speaking, there are many countless people who can use large theoretical terms to confuse you into thinking they know what they are talking about. Maybe they do. Most often they do not. Also, they can't use these things in "real world" musical situations.

I try my best to avoid these type of academic discussions. Sometimes, it is necesssary to go into deep theoretical analysis, especially when studying, but, as Pebber has often told me, "When are you going to use this?" It's always best to go back to the fundamentals and spend most of your time there.

Regardless, the modes, building of modes, building of their chord structures, and, most importantly their use and how to use them is always treated as some sort of mysterious arcane knowledge that only a few chosen people can truly understand. This is how I see "teachers" both in the classroom and on the internet approaching the topic. This is absurd. In other words, don't be confused and don't over think it...which is quite easy to do.

The pdf file Pebber attached earlier in this thread should answer your questions.


-Ursin

Last edited Fri Sep 21, 2012 5:50 am | Scroll up

#9

RE: Diatonic chord fuctions in modes?

in PB Guitarstudio FORUMS Fri Sep 21, 2012 4:58 pm
by FRaKh • 320 Posts

I know i am probably not the one to offer anything on this one....my humble statement...BUT...

Wouldnt it be a better angle to see modes as a moveable chain link fence (the scales) over a sort of...I hate putting it this way...a "fixed" chord. I use the word fixed loosely. And where the chain link fence is at any point in time over the fixed chord is the name of that particular mode.

And

With this sort of mindset....the reverse is true too...fixed scale...moveable chords.....eeeeeee.....ok....Im ready!!!!!

Let the Tomatoes fly!!!!!

LOL


“A World Without String Is Chaos”

Randolf Smuntz

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#10

RE: Diatonic chord fuctions in modes?

in PB Guitarstudio FORUMS Fri Sep 21, 2012 6:06 pm
by uderoche (deleted)
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True FRakh! I don't think you are off base with this logic. There are quite a few ways of looking at modes! Even abstract ideas like you present here. As we've discussed before, sarod is often a hard thing for students to grasp because it is also sort of an abstract concept.

I tend to think of the modes as simply a re-organization of the tonal structure of a scale. So, if I want to use A Dorian I think to myself, "What major scale uses A as it's second note?" That would be G Major. Therefore, I can play all my G major scale shapes over the ii minor chord or if the progression is diatonic to G major but revolving around the ii chord.

This approach works for me.

Also, with Dorian for instance, I will take the minor pentatonic, map it out on paper, and then plug in the Dorian notes on top of that.. I have also found this extremely useful. I think anyone on this forum who is a rock player and interested in modes should give that a try. Very useful. Write things down!!!! Pebber has all the blank neck diagrams on this website!

In the end, to answer the original poster, I think musicians enjoy confusion when discussing theory. Most of them have absolutely no idea what they are talking about.


-Ursin

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#11

RE: Diatonic chord fuctions in modes?

in PB Guitarstudio FORUMS Sat Sep 22, 2012 9:55 am
by deltadiscos • 310 Posts

So people who know nothing of modes are still playing them unless they completely play G Major scale over a G major chord,
the minute that chord progression changes they are playing modes, so if the chord progression changes to say Am7 are they then playing A dorian but still a Gmajor scale. now as that chord changes they want to change the tone to say A Phrygian mode they play a F major scale. So all you need to know really are your major scales and where the notes sit in em?????

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#12

RE: Diatonic chord fuctions in modes?

in PB Guitarstudio FORUMS Sat Sep 22, 2012 2:06 pm
by uderoche (deleted)
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If you know all your major scales up and down the neck then you know the modes. Now, actually applying them and being able to use them is something different altogether. If you want to use A Dorian, you can use all the G major scale shapes but you must change your thinking to A Dorian instead of thinking G major. Takes a lot of practice but, yes, G major and A Dorian are the exact same notes. It's more about the tonality you are playing over. If you are playing over A minor and you want to use A Dorian then you must take the G major scale shapes and shift the tonality so that it pulls to the A minor and not to G major. Same as if you were to use relative major or relative minor scales. C major and A minor have the same notes. So, what makes them different? Same with the modes. The TONAL GRAVITY changes. Takes a lot of practice to learn to use the modes, but the basic theory is relatively simple to understand.


-Ursin

Last edited Sat Sep 22, 2012 2:07 pm | Scroll up

#13

RE: Diatonic chord fuctions in modes?

in PB Guitarstudio FORUMS Sat Sep 22, 2012 5:51 pm
by pebberbrown • 878 Posts

Too many people make such a huge deal out of modes like they are some holy grail or something. Any scale with 7 tones in it can have a mode starting on any one of the 7 notes. The Major scale modes have standard names that everyone knows. The other scales ALL have 7 modes as well and this where people start making up names for them. I prefer numeric designations such as the "5th mode of the Harmonic Minor scale" instead of "Phrygian Major" - because every musician will have yet another new name for a common mode.
There are 7 modes for all 7 note scales and there are 8 modes for all 8 note scales and so on. Call them whatever you want as long as you know whats going on and can remember it.


Last edited Sat Sep 22, 2012 5:52 pm | Scroll up

#14

RE: Diatonic chord fuctions in modes?

in PB Guitarstudio FORUMS Sat Sep 22, 2012 5:56 pm
by oddbaugh • 16 Posts

(Disclaimer: I'm just a rookie offering my lunatic opinion here.)

Someone playing G Major scale over a G Major chord is still playing a mode - G Ionian.

Modes are scales. G Ionian = A Dorian = B Phrygian = C Lydian = D Mixolydian = E Aeolian = F# Locrian = G Major scale (the scale from which the modes are derived.) Thank you, uderoche, for talking about tonal gravity. That's why I posted about playing the scales slowly over backing tracks to learn the sound of the modes (and, hence, the amount of pull the chord has on each note). For instance, you probably wouldn't want to hang on F# over GMaj7 (or, perhaps, you would); but over D7, F# sounds killer (to me). Each mode has a different personality/flavor/mood/attitude. It's up to you to practice, listen, and decide what YOU like.

I think of scales as the raw notes, and modes as how/when (weather permitting) to use those notes. Still working on this...

Read The Advancing Guitarist by Mick Goodrick. Every week. And watch Pebber's vids. Every day. Take notes.

Now, let's discuss the modes derived from Melodic Minor and Harmonic Minor. (That's as far as I've delved into the different scales. Hungarian Minor is next!)

And speaking of backing tracks, does anyone have a boatload of them to download? I've grabbed the tracks from pbguitarstudios (which will keep me occupied for years, I'm betting). Just wondering if anyone has stuff like m/Maj7 & Maj7#5 chords to experiment soloing over.

NOW, I want a complete harmonic analysis of the songs "La Resa" and "Un Dollaro Bucato" in context from the 2009 film "Inglourious Basterds" on my desk by Monday morning.

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#15

RE: Diatonic chord fuctions in modes?

in PB Guitarstudio FORUMS Sun Sep 23, 2012 3:11 pm
by FRaKh • 320 Posts

NO TOMATOES!!!!
Cool!


“A World Without String Is Chaos”

Randolf Smuntz

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#16

RE: Diatonic chord fuctions in modes?

in PB Guitarstudio FORUMS Sun Sep 23, 2012 9:53 pm
by pebberbrown • 878 Posts

Modes are SO damned EASY. I get so damned tired of all the confusion that is parlayed all over the place.
Modes are about as complicated as addition and subtraction folks. No Algebra or Trigonometry here. They are fucking STUPIDLY
simple to understand. So many people have posted "explanations" on my own video pages - like I dont really get it or something!
I will leave the subject alone for a while as its getting old and repetitive to re-explain it yet one more time......

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