#1

Paganini techniques (on guitar?)

in PB Guitarstudio FORUMS Sat Oct 06, 2012 1:26 pm
by nickjacquet (deleted)
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I've been finding myself getting more & more into the work of Niccolo as of late; & there are a couple of his techniques that have sparked my curiosity; as far as to how they would be implemented on pick style guitar. 1.) Double trills: I imagine that this could either mean 2 trills running in time side by side each other...but what about trills moving autonomously of each other? How about if they are on non-adjacent strings? The other thing I was wondering was, I had noticed that often Paganini would play little little scale sequences or scale runs; but simultaneously he also played the corresponding thirds or octaves above each of the lowwer notes as-well...All of this to the rhythms of 16th notes & upwards. Are these techniques that require bowing/pizzicato...or is it feasable to mimic them on pick-style electric guitar?


"Sarod floats like a butterfly...But it stings like when I trill"-Old Shed Proverb

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#2

RE: Paganini techniques (on guitar?)

in PB Guitarstudio FORUMS Mon Oct 08, 2012 4:00 pm
by uderoche (deleted)
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Eliot Fisk did an amazing job of performing the 24 Caprices on classical guitar back in the 90's. However, it's always been my personal opinion that not all of the violin music translates very well to guitar. I love Paganini and I love how Yngwie and others have adopted certain aspects of his music. However, I don't feel that all of it sounds "right" on guitar. Just my personal opinion. And, of course, some of the techniques you mention are not very applicable on the guitar. They can be done, or at least imitated as Fisk has shown, but I don't feel they are all that practical unless you decide to learn all 24 Caprices and master them. I prefer to hear it on violin myself.

Anyway, to answer your question, yes, they can be performed on guitar or, in the cases where they cannot, they can be imitated to the point of acheiving the required effect.


-Ursin

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#3

RE: Paganini techniques (on guitar?)

in PB Guitarstudio FORUMS Tue Oct 09, 2012 11:47 am
by FRaKh • 320 Posts

Practice theem with Sarod!

Combine the 5th and the 24th Caprice and use Sarod.

THATS THE TEST FOR YOUR TECHNIQUE

or learn the famous Crossroads solo.

They both kick my ass...


“A World Without String Is Chaos”

Randolf Smuntz

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#4

RE: Paganini techniques (on guitar?)

in PB Guitarstudio FORUMS Tue Oct 09, 2012 8:29 pm
by nickjacquet (deleted)
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oh by the way Mr. FRaKh, I remember yout saying something about flight patterns that you have used as a sarod cultivating tool...Could you maybe list an example or two of what you had been talking about?


"Sarod floats like a butterfly...But it stings like when I trill"-Old Shed Proverb

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#5

RE: Paganini techniques (on guitar?)

in PB Guitarstudio FORUMS Tue Oct 09, 2012 9:33 pm
by FRaKh • 320 Posts

Well...
they are "ah la" Pebber Brown exercises...everything I do comes directly from Pebber....my only teacher.....but expanded to maximize my own rhythm. When you hit high speed with Sarod, 3nps patterns can be started and completed within a couple of seconds. I expanded simple patterns throughout the neck, covering ALL the frets. Sooo...theoretically one could play 3nps patterns(shifting chromatically) through all of the frets within say within one minute. The hard part isnt the right hand...its the left hand! I also came up with some symmetric patterns to really work on hand movement/positioning/ect. I designed these patterns using Geometry. They are designed to get you right hand technique moving through all of the strings as well as the left hand getting up to speed. There is a lot of shifting....sliding...bouncing that I incorporated into them. You really have to work on the trill for endurance because I kid you not, when you get to the 7-8th fret your hand will catch on fire! lol. Hurts like hell! :)
Im getting closer to the new thread...my work is killing me right now with time.


“A World Without String Is Chaos”

Randolf Smuntz

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#6

RE: Paganini techniques (on guitar?)

in PB Guitarstudio FORUMS Wed Oct 10, 2012 12:43 am
by nickjacquet (deleted)
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Well I must say mr. FRaKh...this post of yours has gotten my brain juices titilated. The thing that I am pondering now is if perhaps my
approach to developing speed picking/Sarod has been from the wrong angle...You see, I always thought that the key to fast picking was
reducable to how synchronized the two hands were...for instance the ability to conciously maintain a 1-1 correspondance or some other
numeric relationship btw/ what the two hands are doing (as opposed to tremello style picking, were a relationship btw/ the two hands
is not necessarily observable)...Are you saying that over the course of your development of the Sarod technique, that in fact you got to a
point where your picking hand could take of with great power even though your left hand wasn't yet able to keep in time/lock in w/ it...
and that only latter after you had acheived sarod w/ the picking hand did your fret hand get synced into the game? So did the ability
to control it come before or after the speed of Sarod picking...The thing that strikes me as wierd in your post is the chromatically shifted
3 N.P.S. comment...because I feel like I am stuck @ the other end of the spectrum w/ my left hand being the overlord and my right hand
being the lesser...For instance... I am pretty sure that I could Ascend/descend through any of the 3 N.P.S. shapes Ascending & Decsending
before shifting it all up one whole step chromatically to cover the whole neck just by sweeping the ascent and descents while
hammering/pulling the rest of the scale...in one minute or less...perhaps I'll make a vid of myself doing this on my day off-of work on
Thursday.


"Sarod floats like a butterfly...But it stings like when I trill"-Old Shed Proverb

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#7

RE: Paganini techniques (on guitar?)

in PB Guitarstudio FORUMS Wed Oct 10, 2012 9:35 am
by FRaKh • 320 Posts

Hhhhmmmm....
For me the two hands have never really caught up with each other. One has always been faster...or better than the other. For instance... When I was younger I was able to sweep the patterns. My timing sucked because I didnt know any better than to just imitate an arpeggio type lick with a pentatonic or 3nps pattern. So right there tells you my right hand sucked and my left was faster.
Now they are almost in sync. But my left hand is really lagging behind in endurance...mainly because of the lack of practice time I have at the moment. BUT I am working on an idea that will help. I think the theory of it is sound but again I must run the gauntlet with Pebber. When practiced it has worked for me.

Practice the TRILL!

Do it in your own way as far as hardcore...dont get hurt....but I am a devoted student to thee TRILL!

Hint....
when you do the trill pay attention to ALL OF THE LEFT HAND MOVEMENTS.....EVERYTHING!
You may stumble on what I discovered.
:)


“A World Without String Is Chaos”

Randolf Smuntz

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#8

RE: Paganini techniques (on guitar?)

in PB Guitarstudio FORUMS Thu Oct 11, 2012 5:47 pm
by Debilius • 96 Posts

Nickjacquet, the thing you mentioned, the idea of double trills... I believe you already tried to fret double stop with two fingers and tried to add the next double stop from the scale with two free fingers to do the trill, and logical idea would be to trill between 3/1 – 4/2 fingerings on instrument tuned mostly in 4rths. I'm talking here in thirds from the scale, as I assumed that's the primary double trill approach. But violin is tuned differently, in 5ths, and it's 3/1-4/2 fingerings also for double trills in thirds, slightly different shapes, but still a little bit easier, since violin neck is shorter so notes are more approachable and they have just to do bowing above, and pull offs on guitar are quite more difficult to do than lifting fingers on violin. Very hard to manage this double trills on a guitar, maybe it's exception between G and B string where the tuning is a major third interval, so it make some double stops easier to exchange with neighbor double stops due to easier fretting. Further, I believe Paganini used lot's of different things on this one which may include alternative tunings... scordatura, popular name in violin players circles, and some people even mention the absence of „devil's tune“... like the secret tune that is said to give you approach to everything on the instrument, but that's mumbo jumbo... further, Paganini also did octave and 6th(the 3rd in octave below) double trills also... and why not to try other intervalic ideas in this double trill idea to play... and also „Gypsy double trills“ as some people refer to it, where one note stays the same, and other is trillin with it's neighbor tone, or in other case sliding trill(Greg Howe sliding vibrato, but in harmony with another interval)... second thing you mentioned is simply playing in harmonies, and it would require same fingerings like in double trills. Maybe the cool approach for thirds would be 3/1 – 4/2 again, and you skip the next logical position again with the 3/1 – 4/2 fingering, or do 3/1 – slide – 4/2 and skip and again 3/1 – slide – 4/2 etc... but these thirds are very difficult for me to execute in this style of fingering... octaves are a little bit easier for me... for octaves I use 1/3 – 2/4 skip on the next logical position and then again 1/3 – 2/4 etc... or maybe just the use of lame harmonizer effect would do the thing for you...

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#9

RE: Paganini techniques (on guitar?)

in PB Guitarstudio FORUMS Thu Oct 11, 2012 8:51 pm
by pebberbrown • 876 Posts

My all time favorite is Anton Oparin playing variations on
Paganini's 16th Caprice - so far no one has been able
to even come close to this (very) young man. He was
all of 14 years old when he played this at the 2010 Namm Show.
I saw him there and I just bow to him as a future virtuoso
who is well beyond the capabilities of almost everyone out there.
Russian kid - lives in Samara, Russia. I connected with him at Namm
but havent been able to since...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l9smMXp4SC0


Last edited Thu Oct 11, 2012 8:53 pm | Scroll up

#10

RE: Paganini techniques (on guitar?)

in PB Guitarstudio FORUMS Tue Oct 16, 2012 2:45 pm
by Debilius • 96 Posts

Definitely the best version of 16th Caprice I've seen...

Maybe more in front video for guys who want to figure out his fingering for this would be:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cVpiU07rUcA

And absolutely interesting interview to read...

http://murmurator.com/en/page.php?al=interview_oparin_1010

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#11

RE: Paganini techniques (on guitar?)

in PB Guitarstudio FORUMS Tue Oct 16, 2012 10:39 pm
by jimiclaptoncarl • 117 Posts

That kid has great technique and sounds great... too bad he only plays memorized material.

He doesn't think improvisation is music.. o_0


"Let's face it, you SUCK; now what are you going to do about it?" - Dick Grove

Practice not just until you get it right, practice until you can't get it wrong.

Stay fit and eat healthy; die anyways. :p

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Last edited Tue Oct 16, 2012 10:41 pm | Scroll up

#12

RE: Paganini techniques (on guitar?)

in PB Guitarstudio FORUMS Fri Oct 19, 2012 11:47 am
by pebberbrown • 876 Posts

I dont know about that - Anton seems like he is playing around with it a lot and improvising around the memorized themes.

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#13

RE: Paganini techniques (on guitar?)

in PB Guitarstudio FORUMS Wed Nov 07, 2012 5:25 am
by Slashiepie • 118 Posts

According to this interview his father is totally against improvisation..
what does his father have to do with his guitar playing? From a lot to everything.

He believes improvisation does not exist and should not exist in music; Also according to him:

Zitat
" in Jazz you may play whatever comes to your head. It’s not music"




Have a read: http://murmurator.com/en/page.php?al=interview_oparin_1010


Last edited Wed Nov 07, 2012 5:35 am | Scroll up

#14

RE: Paganini techniques (on guitar?)

in PB Guitarstudio FORUMS Wed Nov 07, 2012 9:27 am
by condoriano • 28 Posts

ha! a virtuoso who does not believe in improvization? how interesting the various approaches to music are.

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#15

RE: Paganini techniques (on guitar?)

in PB Guitarstudio FORUMS Sat Nov 10, 2012 4:34 pm
by pebberbrown • 876 Posts

Soviet era Stalinist CONTROL FREAK!!!!
"Jazz is not music!" Haa FUCK HIM!!
Anton will one day rebel and ingore his Stalinist father.
The guy is a piece of work to say the least. If my dad
did all that to me I would bust his fuckin nose SEVERAL TIMES!
Fuck that guy in SPADES man!!! This is a 1950 Russian attitude.
Does not belive in improvisation. Well I dont think John Coltrane
or Kieth Jarrett or John McLaughlin or Pat Metheney would agree
let alone pay much attention to his stoic closed minded rants.
Lets all hope Anton wakes up one day and says "wait a minute. Fuck you!"

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#16

RE: Paganini techniques (on guitar?)

in PB Guitarstudio FORUMS Sun Nov 11, 2012 5:28 pm
by Debilius • 96 Posts

Pebber, you said it exactly as it is... and I believe every guy/girl on this forum have similar response on that interview, and I'm glad I've managed to put the link of that interview here. Credit goes to Laurie Monk of Thruth In Shreding site, where I've found it.

And since this is a topic about Paganini, it kinda reflects the similar story of Paganini and his father and how young man may suffer redeeming the role of his father's unfulfilled dreams. I believe Mozart had similar situation with his father.

And this story doesn't end here... above personal reasons, it becomes a racist like type of mindset, "we are above you" mindset.
Very 3rd Reich Nazi alike mindset.

And if I was believing in this type of shit, does it mean that me, or you will never be as good as Malmsteen since he's from Sweden, or as that guy from Europe band named Kee Marcelo... so these damn Vikings are somehow uber race or what... or Grammy goes to Italians since we have so many remarkable players with Italian genes like Steve Vai, Joe Satriani, Frank Gambale, Joe Diorio, Jimmy Bruno etc... Paganini, Vivaldi? Or does it means if someone is not from USA, he/she is never gonna be as good as... ok, let's stop here...

Whole story about this young and very potential guy actually ended up here on this forum thanks to his father. He made him do what he did to become highly effective at very young age. It may be personal reason, national reaoson or even religious one, who knows. But Anton will remember something from this after he gets rid of his father... discipline.

For everything else, it's gonna be "fuck you comrad!"

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#17

RE: Paganini techniques (on guitar?)

in PB Guitarstudio FORUMS Sat Jul 13, 2013 6:09 pm
by Scottulus • 222 Posts

I just read this thread, as I am a huge Paganini fan. That kid is insanely good. Just blew my mind. I really want to play some Paganini now. I have played both caprice # 5 and 16 but woo... Never at that level though! Man the sky is the limit if that is the starting point for that kid. Awesome.

I was always taught that improvisation is just "spontaneous composition"... No improv, no composition. No composition, then no music... So no improv is a bad thing. In my humble opinion! Still, I love the playing in Anton's video.

Gotta love the Pagster...

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#18

RE: Paganini techniques (on guitar?)

in PB Guitarstudio FORUMS Mon Dec 09, 2013 3:02 am
by Justip • 41 Posts

he certainly has some remarkable sense a rhtym an awsome picking tecnhniques. Wonder if he plays Vivaldis Winter.
Thanks for the post.

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