#1

Why is the key of Eb not an easy key for any guitar player ?

in PB Guitarstudio FORUMS Thu Mar 14, 2013 8:09 am
by student • 146 Posts

I am curious because Pebber posted that statement at 17 seconds into this video.
( I ask because all scales are based off the major scale, so I am under the impression the Eb scale has the same shapes as other scales ?)

I could see this being an issue on piano, because you will have black keys in the mix and not as simple as the C scale on piano(only white keys)....but on the guitar if you want to play a major/minor/melodic minor etc, they all have the same shape regardless of key.


Please tell me what I am missing

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#2

RE: Why is the key of Eb not an easy key for any guitar player ?

in PB Guitarstudio FORUMS Thu Mar 14, 2013 3:49 pm
by FRaKh • 320 Posts

The shapes do not change. Once you have memorized the patterns to...whatever scale definition.....all you have to do is shift the patterns accordingly.

Eb is just Eb....

How about Fb...hehehe or Cb...:)


“A World Without String Is Chaos”

Randolf Smuntz

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#3

RE: Why is the key of Eb not an easy key for any guitar player ?

in PB Guitarstudio FORUMS Fri Mar 15, 2013 5:49 am
by notenjesus • 23 Posts

thats not the answer...


Pebber Brown's Soldier
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#4

RE: Why is the key of Eb not an easy key for any guitar player ?

in PB Guitarstudio FORUMS Fri Mar 15, 2013 10:18 am
by AceLuby • 63 Posts

No more difficult to play than any other key IMO...

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#5

RE: Why is the key of Eb not an easy key for any guitar player ?

in PB Guitarstudio FORUMS Fri Mar 15, 2013 5:05 pm
by FRaKh • 320 Posts

Thats true!
Just a different voice for the Major Scale....


“A World Without String Is Chaos”

Randolf Smuntz

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#6

RE: Why is the key of Eb not an easy key for any guitar player ?

in PB Guitarstudio FORUMS Fri Mar 15, 2013 5:54 pm
by John567 • 156 Posts

Why is the key of Eb not an easy key for any guitar player ?

(Note: Anything I say is strictly for entertainment purposes only. Don't believe me. Really, just don't.)

Here's my two cents (this is long winded, so be forewarned):

I've seen this kind of topic come up before among guitarists. It seems that the idea that changing keys for guitar is an easy thing to do. Yes and no. It depends on the situation. What were talking about is basically this:

Position Playing VS "Letter Note Name" Playing

…. and then the third way where there's nothing but sound. I've labeled it as "Internalization". There's probably a better word for it.

It sort of reminds me of when guitar players talk about amplifiers. That tubes are better than solid state, etc…. But, it's a little more subtle.

So… let's say you are jamming with your friends over some kind of funk tune. Usually, funk tunes can be categorized as having a modal harmony. Meaning, it usually sticks to one or two chords over long durations (many measures). In jazz music, a classic example for modal harmony is the song "So What". I have a love hate relationship with it. Yeah, it's only in two keys, but because of the song structure, its very easy to get lost. So, modal playing isn't really easy as some people may think.

Anyway, in the case of "So What", you are playing on a Dm7 chord for a while and then you switch to an Ebm7. You, basically go back and forth over long durations. Easy, right? If you know the Finger/Scale positions well enough you would know that all you have to do is move a semitone up or semitone down.

But, what if you playing over a set of changes that moves to a different chord for every measure? Or every half measure? And the root movement is unforgiving so your moving up a minor 3rd, down a half step, down a flatted 5th.. or something crazy like that. Maybe something like this (I'm just picking randomly):

AbMa7 D7 | DbMa7 E7#9 | Bm7 GbMa7 | etc…

I bet you if its slow enough, you could probably rely on Finger/Scale Position playing. But, the more complex you get harmonically, the harder it is to think in terms of Finger/Scale Positions. Usually, you can identify players who are position players when you see them jumping up and down the neck using one Finger/Scale position. And there's nothing wrong with that. I still do this when I'm stuck and down on my luck and just trying to make the changes.

What suffers though, is the continuity of the melody that you are improvising. The sense of voice leading becomes discontinuous and abrupt and usually thats not what your aiming for (of course this is my opinion).

What usually happens is that you will find it easier to just know the letter not names of each chord. So, instead of seeing the fretboard as Finger/Scale Positions, you see them in letter note spellings. When I see the AbMa7 go to the D7, I see/hear the chords themselves passing by not the Finger/Scale Postion. Because I know the spelling of each chord I have a better sense of what note is gonna lead to the next (I'm not the greatest at this, but I'm getting better as time goes on). So, in other words, how to transition from the C in AbMa7 (in this case its the Major 3rd) to a note in the D7 chord. Guess what? C is also the b7 in the D7 chord. Interesting, no?

If I only relied on Finger/Scale patterns I couldn't make these finer distinctions between the chords.

Pebber has a really cool video of himself playing that lends itself to a kind of playing (actually he has plenty of video examples) that transcends the Finger/Scale Position playing:



Man, I love this fucking example.

Notice, he's not even looking down at his guitar neck for the most part. It's almost like he doesn't let the Finger/Scale positions get in the way. It's kinda like he's just following the sound where it takes him. Meaning…

1. He knows the fingerings (to the point where he probably just has a certain awareness of the fretboard thats hard to put into words).

2. He knows the notes (letter note names on the fret board - I bet if you stopped him in the middle of his playing he could tell you the name of the note he's on and how its related to the chord he's playing over, plus the scale degree of the scale he's using).

3. He can hear the notes.

4. He can follow the melody anywhere he wants.

And the fact that he can do it with his eyes close should tell you something. To me it says that he has totally INTERNALIZED all the mother fucking action you can think of when it come to theory, technique, and knowing how to put the right amount of salt in an italian pasta sauce.

Think about some of his video posts. He is basically leading you (remember, for free) to develop this kind of internalization. That's the end goal, eh? Can you dig it? He breaks it down piece by piece. He tells you things to practice like "sing what you play", "hiding the metronome", etc….

Anyway. That's what I think he was alluding to. Or maybe I'm talking out of my ass. Which happens from time to time. Bowel movements….

But that is my best guess. I've never personally taken lessons from Pebber. So... again: this is for entertainment purposes only.


:D


Last edited Fri Mar 15, 2013 5:56 pm | Scroll up

#7

RE: Why is the key of Eb not an easy key for any guitar player ?

in PB Guitarstudio FORUMS Sat Mar 16, 2013 12:36 am
by student • 146 Posts

Damn John...you have increased my awareness bigtime with that post. I don't know what really else to say, just thanks a fuckload dude!

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#8

RE: Why is the key of Eb not an easy key for any guitar player ?

in PB Guitarstudio FORUMS Sat Mar 16, 2013 4:10 am
by deltadiscos • 310 Posts

I can understand what a few are saying learn the root notes and move them around. to any key

I am now learning the 14 position system and going through all keys currently on Gb.
So I may as well just learn the scales in say G major and move that around
and not worry about what notes are in the key i'm playing.

I suppose you could still learn keys and what scale-tones-numbers they fall on away from the scales

Now I am confused

Also spent 3 hours yesterday on two positions so never got much else done is this overkill.

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#9

RE: Why is the key of Eb not an easy key for any guitar player ?

in PB Guitarstudio FORUMS Mon Mar 18, 2013 6:43 am
by Case • 68 Posts

3 hrs on two positions is overkill? I've been practicing the descending part of the F major scale (1st pos) for weeks now to get up to speed. This is stricktly for improving my technique though and my feeling is that it won't take this long to get to the same speed when I'm learning the other positions...

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#10

RE: Why is the key of Eb not an easy key for any guitar player ?

in PB Guitarstudio FORUMS Wed Mar 20, 2013 12:23 pm
by FRaKh • 320 Posts

Your correct....
14 pos system is the step to hardcore-ism. The patterns DO NOT CHANGE...they are formulated and once you have memorized them...you are done...just move them around like you say.

3 hours...gooodt!!!!!!!

After a while....a month or so doing 3 hrs/day on each....something strange happened to me.....

I started thinking that the patterns were say....embedded on a rolling pin...and as I practiced my runs....it felt as though all I had to do was roll out the patterns on the fret board...like a rolling pin.

I didnt have to memorize the patterns at all....second nature....and my left hand was already completely trained to regurgitate the pattern at will.

idk...my oddball 2 cents thrown in...
:)


“A World Without String Is Chaos”

Rudolf Smuntz
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#11

RE: Why is the key of Eb not an easy key for any guitar player ?

in PB Guitarstudio FORUMS Wed Mar 20, 2013 3:23 pm
by John567 • 156 Posts

Hey FRaKh,

I like the analogy of the rolling pin. With regards to Pebber's 14 positions, do you find yourself favouring one set of fingering over another? Or are you fluent with each position equally?

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#12

RE: Why is the key of Eb not an easy key for any guitar player ?

in PB Guitarstudio FORUMS Wed Mar 20, 2013 4:19 pm
by deltadiscos • 310 Posts

Yes FRakh when you break those 3 hours up it's not long really

write out 5/7/14 positions
timing
singing
harmony
Arpeggios
sequences.
everything picked up to sixes at least.
I run through every position
but one scale tone or two positions get the treatment above everyday.

Currently on Cb soon be onto the sharp keys yipeeeee!!!

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#13

RE: Why is the key of Eb not an easy key for any guitar player ?

in PB Guitarstudio FORUMS Thu Mar 21, 2013 8:40 pm
by FRaKh • 320 Posts

As far as one set of fingerings...do you mean...position 12 versus position 10.....?

I like the even numbered potions...3 nps.
But yeah..Ii know them all. The hard thing is to be fluent at the odd positions...the ones where the second string has 2 notes and the rest have 3 notes. But...there are ways to practice this type of pattern in order to be fluent with them all. For now try to be fluent with all 14 positions. Writting them out 10x a day each will help for sure. Mechanically is just the number of hours a day you practice them.


“A World Without String Is Chaos”

Rudolf Smuntz
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#14

RE: Why is the key of Eb not an easy key for any guitar player ?

in PB Guitarstudio FORUMS Sun Apr 14, 2013 10:03 pm
by pebberbrown • 878 Posts

Thanks for all the kid words guys I appreciate it. Now you advanced 14 pos guys all need to put your efforts into the 35 position system now. Its the next step past the 14 pos system - the Scaletone system. Its all free up on my website. Press on!

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