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#26

RE: Sweep Picking Thread

in PB Guitarstudio FORUMS Sun Jun 30, 2013 10:08 pm
by uderoche (deleted)
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Quote: Cliff wrote in post #28
You know, I remember reading an interview with Yngwie where he talked about his sweeping in the little-known song Massive Malmo Mamba, from the Inevitable Upthrust album. He said exactly the same thing.

But seriously, interesting thoughts. Maybe there should be another thread for this type of discussion? Not being familiar with this idea myself, you sent me on a pleasant little journey through Wikipedia. After a little reading I was confused why, in the key of C major, it would be A major rather than A minor that was the secondary dominant for D minor. Am I right in thinking that's because we need the C# from the A major to become the leading note for D?


I would like to refrain from deep theoretical discussions in this thread. Usually, theory discussions bore me to death as it's usually a pissing contest about who knows more theory which is extremely counter-productive and very juvenile.

Since he is soon to complete his phd in music theory, I defer all questions of theory to Pebber as his knowledge of such dwarfs most anyone I have ever met.

I don't know why you are concerned with secondary dominants but, to answer your question simply: Secondary dominants are the dominants within a certain key that are not actually present in that key. For example, in the key of C major, the dominant is G. However, the ii, iii, IV, V, vi chords of C major also have their own dominant...known as secondary dominants.

In the key of D minor the v chord is A minor. In D major the V chord is A major.

The harmonization of major scales and minor scales is different. In my video I showed you how to harmonize the major scale. Harmonizing the minor scale produces a different series of chords.

Major
I, ii, iii, IV, V, vi, vii(diminished)

Minor
i, ii(diminished), III, iv, v, VI, VII

I=major
i=minor


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#27

RE: Sweep Picking Thread

in PB Guitarstudio FORUMS Sun Jun 30, 2013 10:24 pm
by NicholasJacquet (deleted)
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It can all be summarized by the following: The V->I motion is so strong...strong enough to move "do" to a new key center that 99% of the time exists within +/- one accidental of the prior...Secondary functions pop up all the time in contemporary music...Even in rock music....Intro to Nightrain by Guns and Roses...Slashes "Anastasia"...Its called Chromatic Harmony...While I am certainly no music theory wiz, I do think it would be rather foolish for one to spend a whole bunch of time working on the technical aspects of arpeggio playing without spending at least some time developing a basic awareness of how arpeggio's function. They are after all, just a fancy way of playing through chords...And since chords are the basis of western music it is critical for all musicians to know them backwards and forwards. Ultimately we as musicians need to understand how they behave. And yes cliff, The leading tone to tonic relationship is what gives dominants the ability to dominate...So When You encounter A Major followed by d minor (or for that matter D major) in what Seemed to be a C major world, the implication of tritone btw/ the C# and the seventh of the A maj chord, Coupled w/ the C#'s resolution to D...its strong enough to move ones tonal center.

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#28

RE: Sweep Picking Thread

in PB Guitarstudio FORUMS Sun Jun 30, 2013 10:25 pm
by NicholasJacquet (deleted)
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But I do think it worthwhile to start a thread on Chromatic Harmony.


Last edited Sun Jun 30, 2013 10:25 pm | Scroll up

#29

RE: Sweep Picking Thread

in PB Guitarstudio FORUMS Mon Jul 01, 2013 4:29 am
by uderoche (deleted)
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Quote: NicholasJacquet wrote in post #30
It can all be summarized by the following: The V->I motion is so strong...strong enough to move "do" to a new key center that 99% of the time exists within +/- one accidental of the prior...Secondary functions pop up all the time in contemporary music...Even in rock music....Intro to Nightrain by Guns and Roses...Slashes "Anastasia"...Its called Chromatic Harmony...While I am certainly no music theory wiz, I do think it would be rather foolish for one to spend a whole bunch of time working on the technical aspects of arpeggio playing without spending at least some time developing a basic awareness of how arpeggio's function.


Actually it's called "You're starting to aggravate the fuck out of me."

What you find foolish doesn't concern me in the least.


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#30

RE: Sweep Picking Thread

in PB Guitarstudio FORUMS Mon Jul 01, 2013 6:20 am
by ashan • 187 Posts

some people just need to play what they hear in their head. so technique videos are just what i need. i just got a headache reading halfway this page. wish it wasn't splattered all over with advanced theory BS. thanks for the videos ursin. started practicing your 2 string sweep lessons today

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#31

RE: Sweep Picking Thread

in PB Guitarstudio FORUMS Mon Jul 01, 2013 6:26 am
by ashan • 187 Posts

how do i separate notes when doing a barred 2 string pattern? like a Am arpeggio 5th fret 2nd string 5th fret 1st string 8th fret 1string?

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#32

RE: Sweep Picking Thread

in PB Guitarstudio FORUMS Mon Jul 01, 2013 6:31 am
by uderoche (deleted)
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You have to "roll" the index finger to stop the notes from ringing after you play them. I skipped it in my videos but we'll get to it later as it is very necessary albeit more difficult for those new to the technique or just practicing sweep picking for the first time.


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Last edited Mon Jul 01, 2013 6:32 am | Scroll up

#33

RE: Sweep Picking Thread

in PB Guitarstudio FORUMS Mon Jul 01, 2013 8:50 am
by dlraben • 278 Posts

Ursin, how crucial is it to use the exact fingerings you used in the 3-string sweep video?

Also, when sweeping through ladders, do you also recommend adding in pull-offs/hammers on the E-strings so that we can practice what we might do when sweeping an arpeggio? For example, instead of 5 downs, 5 ups, 5 downs, etc., I wonder if it's beneficial to drill 6 downs, pull-off, 5 ups, hammer, 5 downs, pull-off, etc. This one allows us to reverse the order of the fretting fingers a bit more too, like the standard ladders. Hard to ask this in words, but I'm afraid I can't show what I mean in a quick video for another week or so. Sorry if this is an obvious 'yes, practice everything, always.'

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#34

RE: Sweep Picking Thread

in PB Guitarstudio FORUMS Mon Jul 01, 2013 9:23 am
by uderoche (deleted)
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Quote: dlraben wrote in post #36
Ursin, how crucial is it to use the exact fingerings you used in the 3-string sweep video?

Also, when sweeping through ladders, do you also recommend adding in pull-offs/hammers on the E-strings so that we can practice what we might do when sweeping an arpeggio? For example, instead of 5 downs, 5 ups, 5 downs, etc., I wonder if it's beneficial to drill 6 downs, pull-off, 5 ups, hammer, 5 downs, pull-off, etc. This one allows us to reverse the order of the fretting fingers a bit more too, like the standard ladders. Hard to ask this in words, but I'm afraid I can't show what I mean in a quick video for another week or so. Sorry if this is an obvious 'yes, practice everything, always.'


Good question. First, yeah I'd say "practice everything." Mix it up. The pull off move is not always used. I've noticed it more in the neo-classical shred world. For instance, Yngwie almost always starts descending lines with a pull off. Back to the arpeggios, it's not totally uncommon for some guys to pick the entire thing. So, mix it up.

As to the fingering, if you go to Pebber's website and download the 5 POS system LARGE pdf, the major shape I show is a fragment of the POS 3 major arpeggio and the minor shape I show is a fragment of POS 3 minor arpeggio (found under Melodic Minor POS 3).

The fingerings suggested are the ones I use and the ones most commonly used I would say.

For the diminished shape I will mix it up. Sometimes I use fingers 1, 3 & 4. Other times I use a "rock hand" style fingers 1, 2 & 3. Sometimes I can get the intonation better on the higher frets this way. Lower on the neck if I'm doing a diminished arpeggio using the 16th note grouping (the one with the pull off) I use all 4 fingers...doubling up my 3rd and 4th finger on the same fret...4th finger to do the pull off and then 1, 2, & 3 for the rest.

Hope that isn't too confusing and hope you enjoyed the videos.


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#35

RE: Sweep Picking Thread

in PB Guitarstudio FORUMS Mon Jul 01, 2013 10:11 am
by dlraben • 278 Posts

Sweet, that makes perfect sense to me. Videos are great & thanks for putting up the 3-string version even if it was sooner than you planned. I'm still logging plenty of time on 2-string sweeps and all the other right & left hand technique drills. No need to convice me they are worth it.

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#36

RE: Sweep Picking Thread

in PB Guitarstudio FORUMS Mon Jul 01, 2013 10:56 am
by Cliff • 344 Posts

Ursin - sorry for derailing the thread.

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#37

RE: Sweep Picking Thread

in PB Guitarstudio FORUMS Mon Jul 01, 2013 11:33 am
by uderoche (deleted)
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No worries. All good.


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#38

RE: Sweep Picking Thread

in PB Guitarstudio FORUMS Mon Jul 01, 2013 12:35 pm
by pebberbrown • 876 Posts

Yeah this thread seems like its getting into some BASIC harmony lessons rather than sweep picking fundamentals. We all exist here to try to help one another not try to "best" our fellow struggling players with our own independent knowledge at whatever level its at.

Nick please copy and all your text and paste it into a new (more appropriate) Harmony and Theory thread (please create one) and please remove your comments from this thread and leave it all to Ursin as its HIS thread on sweep picking not a thread on basic harmony.

I myself am interested in more newer sweep ideas that Ursin has as he is much more connected with new styles and new metal music and has his ear to the ground and knows much more about all the new stuff than I do. He laughed atme when I expressed my enthusiasom over hearing JOOP WOLTERS as he had already been aware of him for YEARS!

So - NICK. Please adjust the governor on your approach and post it all up in a brand new Theory forum. These guys here all want to learn Ursin's sweep picking lessons myself included. Thank you.

-=>PB

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#39

RE: Sweep Picking Thread

in PB Guitarstudio FORUMS Tue Jul 02, 2013 5:41 am
by NicholasJacquet (deleted)
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It would be my pleasure...Gadzooks! FYI for anyone who considered my post to be "advanced theory", I am going to script and shot a vid in the new thread explaining it in more detail BUT in as simple a manner as I can figure...I hope it will trigger some light bulb moments for someone.


Last edited Tue Jul 02, 2013 5:49 am | Scroll up

#40

RE: Sweep Picking Thread

in PB Guitarstudio FORUMS Tue Jul 02, 2013 7:09 pm
by Cliff • 344 Posts

Latest sweep picking progress vid:



First, apologies for the t-shirt. A friend, who thinks I'm a smart-ass, got it for me. I'm well aware of the lack of brilliance on display here.

I'm a bit disappointed with the progress here. It feels like one has to get into a 'groove' to play the sweeps smoothly. I seem to struggle to get into the groove, then fall out of it very easily. I haven't seriously attempted the 3-string sweeps yet, since I think there's plenty more work for me to do on the 2-string ones. Any advice and/or criticism greatly appreciated.

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#41

RE: Sweep Picking Thread

in PB Guitarstudio FORUMS Wed Jul 03, 2013 4:05 pm
by uderoche (deleted)
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You are right Cliff. It is a bit difficult at first to keep the tempo steady and correct. Just need time to build the muscle memory.


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#42

RE: Sweep Picking Thread

in PB Guitarstudio FORUMS Fri Jul 05, 2013 12:55 pm
by deltadiscos • 310 Posts

OK so reeled it back in Here is my Progress with 2 finger sweeps for ursin all comments appreciated though


You think you practice enough.......YOU DON'T!............PRACTICE MORE! Darryn U.K
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#43

RE: Sweep Picking Thread

in PB Guitarstudio FORUMS Fri Jul 05, 2013 1:39 pm
by Cliff • 344 Posts

I hope it goes without saying that whenever I offer comment it's intended in a good-spirited way. I know I'm no great shakes myself on guitar, but would like to think I still have something positive to offer in terms of advice. And I'm always happy to receive similar criticism.

Darryn - it sounds to me like you should maybe slow down a little and work on getting the notes sounding more even. I think I can detect a similar problem to one I'm dealing with, in that the left and right hands aren't quite synced up. Last night I tried playing through these quite slowly, paying particular attention to note clarity and trying to be sure that the duration of each of the 16ths was the same. I'd recommend trying the same. Also, I think I detected a couple of cases where the note on the high E string was still ringing when you began sounding the note on the B string.

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#44

RE: Sweep Picking Thread

in PB Guitarstudio FORUMS Fri Jul 05, 2013 1:54 pm
by JoelMedina • 72 Posts

A couple days now and I've been seeing great improvement with my left hand sweeping the ladder exercises.

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#45

RE: Sweep Picking Thread

in PB Guitarstudio FORUMS Fri Jul 05, 2013 2:11 pm
by deltadiscos • 310 Posts

Yes ive noticed this too cliff when slower i have time to release the first finger. what would be the best method for muting the high E . cheers for having a look. it all helps mate


You think you practice enough.......YOU DON'T!............PRACTICE MORE! Darryn U.K
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#46

RE: Sweep Picking Thread

in PB Guitarstudio FORUMS Fri Jul 05, 2013 2:24 pm
by dlraben • 278 Posts

Darryn, not sure my advice is worth anything either, but I agree with Cliff here. If you absolutely refuse to back the metronome down to 16ths at 60-80 or so, then I implore you to pick a single position and just drill that single position in time for like 30 minutes straight. During that 30 minutes, really pay attention to the timing and the sound of every note. I really think you should back that metronome down though. I bet it won't take long for you to speed it up again.

In your video, since you didn't stay in one position all that long, I couldn't help but wonder if you were able to continue to play at that speed, cleanly, for as long as you wanted or not. At some point in one of these threads, Ursin advised us to pick a SLOW speed at which we could play an exercise completely cleanly & perfectly for at least a minute straight. Once we could do that, bump up the metronome just a touch (like one metronome notch; the smallest increment possible to you). If you can't do it perfectly at a given speed, you need to either stay there and nail it, or throttle it back again.

Also, it doesn't look like you quite have all the shapes perfectly down yet. This would be another reason to pick one and stay there for 30+ minutes. Then when you switch back and forth, just call out loud what it is that you're playing. For one example, A-minor, G-major scaletone 2, A dorian, or all of the above.

I'm jealous of all you guys right now. On vacation for a week WITH NO GUITAR !!! Then Ursin drops the 3-string sweep video and Pebber drops the legato video !?!? (Cliff, to answer your question though, yes, I've been practicing legato like in Pebber's video for months now. I play 16ths but I really dig trying to play 5s.) Plus my monthly videos from Pebber come in!?!? I'm in fricken' WITHDRAWAL and need a fix.

edit: to mute the high e-string when shifting to the b-string, lift your index finger up on the e-string so the note stops ringing, but don't take your index finger totally off the string causing the open E to sound.


Last edited Fri Jul 05, 2013 2:26 pm | Scroll up

#47

RE: Sweep Picking Thread

in PB Guitarstudio FORUMS Fri Jul 05, 2013 9:49 pm
by Cliff • 344 Posts

Hey Damon - hope the vacation's going well. Last time I went away I actually managed to fit a guitar in the trunk along with all the family luggage.

Agreed on the E damping method. I had to practice this quite a bit at a slow speed, but now it's second nature. The index finger only has to lift a very small amount just as the other finger is falling into place.

For me, it almost feels like I'm going backwards with the sweep picking. Even at slow speeds I struggle to get a consistent tone and rhythm. I think I should have spent more time on my scalpel practice. (Dava picks on the way, so I'm hoping they might help some.)

When doing scalpel, how much do you guys dig in? I find if I dig in too much the pick keeps sticking. If I dig in too little, I get a weak tone. It seems pretty hard to find the sweet spot. (Just to double-check: the pick should only be moving in the direction of the edge at its base, right? - no side-to-side motion at all?) I did find that I got a smoother tone if I angled the pick's point in a little towards my palm, but I'm guessing this isn't the right thing to do?


Last edited Fri Jul 05, 2013 9:50 pm | Scroll up

#48

RE: Sweep Picking Thread

in PB Guitarstudio FORUMS Sat Jul 06, 2013 9:21 am
by student • 146 Posts

I use these Dava picks(gel version)
http://www.amazon.com/Dava-9224-Jazz-Gri...dava+jazz+picks

They can really pack a punch.


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#49

RE: Sweep Picking Thread

in PB Guitarstudio FORUMS Sat Jul 06, 2013 1:37 pm
by Cliff • 344 Posts

Yep, I have some Delrin ones on the way after Ursin's recommendation.

Regarding my struggle to get an even tone, I've just been practicing acoustically, and I think part of the problem is in left-right-hand sync. With a shallow pick attack, I can get a good sound provided I'm very careful to not release the low string until the high string has been struck (and being sure to have the high string fretted just at the point when it is struck). Of course, the proof of the pudding will be whether I can keep this consistent, and whether it sounds good amplified.

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#50

RE: Sweep Picking Thread

in PB Guitarstudio FORUMS Sat Jul 06, 2013 6:44 pm
by deltadiscos • 310 Posts

you should've ordered the mix pack cliff to see which you like i started with delrin (red) but have now moved to nylon (yellow ) much better attack and sound


You think you practice enough.......YOU DON'T!............PRACTICE MORE! Darryn U.K
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