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#51

RE: Chord Thread

in PB Guitarstudio FORUMS Tue Oct 08, 2013 10:34 pm
by pebberbrown • 878 Posts

Who the heck said you need lessons on Chord Theory??? You got it wired!

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#52

RE: Chord Thread

in PB Guitarstudio FORUMS Sat Oct 12, 2013 4:21 pm
by deltadiscos • 310 Posts

OK so just clicked to me how Secondary Dominant chords & Tri-tone Substitution works.

Don't you just love those Eureka moments.


You think you practice enough.......YOU DON'T!............PRACTICE MORE! Darryn U.K
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#53

RE: Chord Thread

in PB Guitarstudio FORUMS Sat Oct 12, 2013 4:25 pm
by deltadiscos • 310 Posts

double post whoops!!


You think you practice enough.......YOU DON'T!............PRACTICE MORE! Darryn U.K

Last edited Sat Oct 12, 2013 4:27 pm | Scroll up

#54

RE: Chord Thread

in PB Guitarstudio FORUMS Sat Oct 12, 2013 4:49 pm
by NicholasJacquet (deleted)
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Yeah secondary dominants sure are great...I love how it sounds when shit gets tonicized...its almost like ordering food at a restaurant that specializes in exotic cuisines because its like each major and minor key offers a menu of closely related keys each with its own unique flavor.


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#55

RE: Chord Thread

in PB Guitarstudio FORUMS Sat Oct 12, 2013 4:54 pm
by NicholasJacquet (deleted)
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I wonder how music that tonicizes and or modulates all over the place would be heard by those who do not relate to music intervallically like I do...I mean people to people with perfect pitch...would the taste that they experiece from say tonicising the key of iii (as opposed to say the flavor of the Key of IV) have some additional dimension to it from what I am able to experience?


Ursinic Aknowledgements:

Play Guitar better than Fred Durst?---Check

Play Guitar better than Lil' Wayne?---Check

Play Guitar better than Franz Listz?---

Last edited Sat Oct 12, 2013 4:57 pm | Scroll up

#56

RE: Chord Thread

in PB Guitarstudio FORUMS Mon Oct 14, 2013 6:03 am
by deltadiscos • 310 Posts

Well i was experimenting B7/Em Am/A7/Dm G7/Db7/CMaj7

My son walks past saying that's sounds awful.
I said your ears just aint tuned for these amazing sounds

Now lets see if i have the theory right
The 3rd of the dominant wants to pull to the root of the resolving chord.
and the 7th want to pull to the 3rd of the resolving chord.

Now when you resolve to a minor7 chord you lose the 7th to 3rd pull because of the flatted 3rd.
so you could use altered chord say 9(b5) to resolve to minor chord. 7th resolves to the 5th.

The interval of 3rd to 7th of a dominant chord is a flatted fifth.
Now the chord a Flatted fifth or a tritone away from the dominant chord contains the same interval between the 3rd and 7th. it has the same two notes as the dominant reversed. so resolves well to the I chord.

Probably sounds like gibberish does to me now i've read it back lol!


You think you practice enough.......YOU DON'T!............PRACTICE MORE! Darryn U.K
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#57

RE: Chord Thread

in PB Guitarstudio FORUMS Mon Oct 14, 2013 10:31 am
by deltadiscos • 310 Posts

b9th to 5th*
whoops


You think you practice enough.......YOU DON'T!............PRACTICE MORE! Darryn U.K
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#58

RE: Chord Thread

in PB Guitarstudio FORUMS Mon Oct 14, 2013 2:34 pm
by John567 • 156 Posts

Hi deltadiscos,

Man I found it hard to follow along with what you were saying. Can we see a video of it. I would love to see the voicings that you are using. Or maybe post a transcription of it? I'm always looking for new voice leading ideas....

:D

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#59

RE: Chord Thread

in PB Guitarstudio FORUMS Thu Oct 17, 2013 8:43 am
by John567 • 156 Posts

This is for dlraben:

C7 chord samples.JPG - Bild entfernt (keine Rechte)

You could do something like this for each chord of a song you are working on.

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#60

RE: Chord Thread

in PB Guitarstudio FORUMS Thu Oct 17, 2013 9:23 am
by dlraben • 278 Posts

Thanks John. Yeah, I do something similar but have stuck to scale tone numbers (1, b3, etc.) more than note letters. I really should do both.

Attached is the latest version of what I've typically used to practice. But as I wrote in my PM, I've recently been picking a set of changes (still simple: from a 1 chord vamp up to maybe a 4 bar loop) and have just worked on improvising musically over them. I'm finding that this is helping me way more than running the scales harmonically (or around the circle) up and down.

Again, I should do it all. For like another 20 years.


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Chord_Scales.pdf Chord_Scales.pdf
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#61

RE: Chord Thread

in PB Guitarstudio FORUMS Thu Oct 17, 2013 7:19 pm
by John567 • 156 Posts

Quote: dlraben wrote in post #60
Thanks John. Yeah, I do something similar but have stuck to scale tone numbers (1, b3, etc.) more than note letters. I really should do both.

Attached is the latest version of what I've typically used to practice. But as I wrote in my PM, I've recently been picking a set of changes (still simple: from a 1 chord vamp up to maybe a 4 bar loop) and have just worked on improvising musically over them. I'm finding that this is helping me way more than running the scales harmonically (or around the circle) up and down.

Again, I should do it all. For like another 20 years.



Your attachment is crazy! Looks like your gonna be the next Ted Greene! I hope I'm still around in 20 years. Your gonna be a monster..... :D

Post a video you your comping anyhow. When you feel up to it just let me know. I'm always looking for new ideas. I'll be going through charts for sure!

Thanks dlraben!

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#62

RE: Chord Thread

in PB Guitarstudio FORUMS Sat Oct 19, 2013 5:43 pm
by diegopaudyal • 91 Posts

Okay so I am learning how to play sheet music from this book. How do you play these chords?

Following the sheet below, i play the C on Low E string, E on the 5th string,G on the 4th string and B on the 3rd string. This is a big stretch for me but I try to play it anyway. Its complicated to play C Aug 7 or C 7 or any other given chords following the notes below.

I cannot follow the given notes and play these chords. How do you do it? Should I find some notes an octave higher or lower and figure out an easier shape to play?
Thank You
chord.jpg - Bild entfernt (keine Rechte)


Don't just do it, Finish it!!
-Michael Angelo Batio
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#63

RE: Chord Thread

in PB Guitarstudio FORUMS Sat Oct 19, 2013 5:52 pm
by student • 146 Posts

I can't tell how close you are to grabbing those C Aug 7 and C 7, if you are close to being able to grab em, do stetching.
Pebber has an isometric routine, it has helped me a lot. Lastly if you just can't, I would recommend moving everything up 12 frets :) When I leave work I am going to see if I can grab em.


Don't listen to me
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#64

RE: Chord Thread

in PB Guitarstudio FORUMS Wed Oct 23, 2013 2:40 pm
by diegopaudyal • 91 Posts

Yeah I've been following Pebbers isometrics technique a few weeks. Moving up 12 frets really made my left hand 2x easier.

Okay I have one more question atm. So I am learning these chord shapes. In order to make an add9 chord, do I have to add the 9th note (which is also the 2nd note but an octave higher) or I can add any 2nd note (higher or lower) instead of the 9th?

I mean If I want to play a C add9, can i play:
5th string 5th fret
4th string 5th fret
3rd string 5th fret
2nd string 5th fret

instead of playing the common open C add9 shape?

Thank you in advance.


Don't just do it, Finish it!!
-Michael Angelo Batio
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#65

RE: Chord Thread

in PB Guitarstudio FORUMS Thu Oct 24, 2013 4:00 pm
by John567 • 156 Posts

Quote: diegopaudyal wrote in post #64
Yeah I've been following Pebbers isometrics technique a few weeks. Moving up 12 frets really made my left hand 2x easier.

Okay I have one more question atm. So I am learning these chord shapes. In order to make an add9 chord, do I have to add the 9th note (which is also the 2nd note but an octave higher) or I can add any 2nd note (higher or lower) instead of the 9th?

I mean If I want to play a C add9, can i play:
5th string 5th fret
4th string 5th fret
3rd string 5th fret
2nd string 5th fret

instead of playing the common open C add9 shape?

Thank you in advance.





Hi diegopaudyal,

This is what I got:

C:D.jpg - Bild entfernt (keine Rechte)

What you have there is a C 2nd inversion triad over a D bass note. It can can be written as C/D. It can also be thought of as a D9sus. You would think its a C add 9 because the letter note names are the same... But, to me it still sounds like a D9sus chord. Lets investigate the C add 9:

C E G D (now thats sounds like an add 9!)
E G D C (Em7 with the b6th/b13th?)
G D C E (sounds sus like - maybe G6sus?)
D C E G (sounds sus like)

To me an "add 9" sound means you are putting the 9th of the chord above the Root not on the bottom like the C/D.

If you are looking for an "add 9" then you just have to remember that the D has to be on top. So you could use the following form:

C add 9.jpg - Bild entfernt (keine Rechte)

Its a bit of a stretch but sounds kinda cool. If you try the D as a second and your keeping the Root you get a lot of tension but again it sounds pretty cool. But its an "add 2" at that point....

If you come up with any add9 voicings post'em and let me know. I'm interested to see what you come up with....

:D

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#66

RE: Chord Thread

in PB Guitarstudio FORUMS Fri Oct 25, 2013 1:14 am
by diegopaudyal • 91 Posts

Okay cool. You helped me solve the confusion.
So as far as I understand to make any add chord, the "add note" should be on the top and not on the bass string right?

I have no idea what b6th/b13th and G6sus are. I will take a look into these chords after I finish my basics book.

I always thought that sus chords don't contain the 3rd. For example: 1,2,5(sus2) or 1,4,5(sus4). So shouldn't sus6 contain 1,6,5? Just making sure because you said "G D C E (sounds sus like - maybe G6sus?)" Honestly I didn't know until now that there is a sus6 chord until I read your reply. I thought only sus2 and sus4 existed. Excuse my poor chord knowledge.

Okay so I could think of these 3 C add 9 shapes atm that I can actually play on the guitar with no stretching problem.
C ADD 9 SHAPES.jpg - Bild entfernt (keine Rechte)

I appreciate your reply. Cheers!!


Don't just do it, Finish it!!
-Michael Angelo Batio
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#67

RE: Chord Thread

in PB Guitarstudio FORUMS Fri Oct 25, 2013 4:10 pm
by John567 • 156 Posts

Hey diegopaudyal,

Here's what I got:

PB Forum - Chord Thread 1.jpg - Bild entfernt (keine Rechte)

PB Forum - Chord Thread 2.jpg - Bild entfernt (keine Rechte)

I have to tell you I really never use these fingerings. I don't even remember ever seeing the C ton chord before. The way they are notated on the staff that you have are just your generic voicings that can be played quite easily on the piano. But, on the guitar is another matter. I would start to look into other voicings like the drop 2's and drop 3's.

I think this sheet, like the one in the beginning of the Real Book, is just to show the formulas.

I could write out some of the drop 2's and 3's for you but its more fun to discover them yourself. I've briefly outlined the drop 2's and 3's earlier in this thread. Take a look at it and let me know what you think. Try writing them out kinda like what I did and post it...

:D

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#68

RE: Chord Thread

in PB Guitarstudio FORUMS Fri Oct 25, 2013 4:34 pm
by John567 • 156 Posts

Quote: diegopaudyal wrote in post #66
Okay cool. You helped me solve the confusion.
So as far as I understand to make any add chord, the "add note" should be on the top and not on the bass string right?

I have no idea what b6th/b13th and G6sus are. I will take a look into these chords after I finish my basics book.

I always thought that sus chords don't contain the 3rd. For example: 1,2,5(sus2) or 1,4,5(sus4). So shouldn't sus6 contain 1,6,5? Just making sure because you said "G D C E (sounds sus like - maybe G6sus?)" Honestly I didn't know until now that there is a sus6 chord until I read your reply. I thought only sus2 and sus4 existed. Excuse my poor chord knowledge.

Okay so I could think of these 3 C add 9 shapes atm that I can actually play on the guitar with no stretching problem.

I appreciate your reply. Cheers!!



Well, I have to tell you that the chords mentioned (b6th/b13th, G6sus, etc) are just guesses. When thinking about chords we should start at the begining. Start with the triads and learn the formulas. Learn how they appear in the major scale, etc.

... and your right: the "sus" really means substitute the major 3 with a perfect 4th. So, when ever you see the "sus" it means trade the 3 for the 4. Same thing applies for the sus2 (R 2 5).

When I looked at the notes G D C E, I saw the following:

E = 6th
C = 4th
D = 5th
G = Root

That's how I got the G6sus. The C is the 4th covering the B which is the 3rd of G. Also, I see a rootless voicing of an Am11:

E = 5th
C = b3th
D = 4th
G = b7

The voicings you got there are new to me. I don't think I've ever used them in the past. If I were to offer my 2 cents it would be to investigate the Drop 2 and Drop 3 voicings. Once you know them it'll dictate how to play a sus chord, add 9, etc. You could also just start with a generic Major bar chord and mix the notes up to see what you can come up with.

The key, I think, is to just keep at it. Make sure you know your basics very well. Play with it and have fun.

:D

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#69

RE: Chord Thread

in PB Guitarstudio FORUMS Sun Nov 03, 2013 4:32 pm
by diegopaudyal • 91 Posts

Thank you John, I will work on my basics.
I have one question for you. So I am studying this jazz book and it doesn't show me any chord shapes. So I am figuring out the shapes/voicings myself instead of looking it in the internet. I just came across C Maj7 #11 chord and my brain cannot process any shape. There are 5 notes in this chord and I have only 4 fretting fingers. How would you play this chord? I am guessing that there could be some notes in the chord that can be excluded. If so what notes are those?

I appreciate your help.


Don't just do it, Finish it!!
-Michael Angelo Batio
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#70

RE: Chord Thread

in PB Guitarstudio FORUMS Sun Nov 03, 2013 5:30 pm
by NicholasJacquet (deleted)
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This question takes me back to the days where I am sitting in my theory/analysis class and my proffesor is prattling on about how his first year theory students for some reason or another feel some irrational urge to always be part writing with complete chord voicings...omit the perfect fifth of the chord...it doesnt really bring much to the table anyways or contribute much to the chord...plus folks who dont know what they are doing will use them poorly in parrallell voices...doing so is very poor of taste.


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Play Guitar better than Fred Durst?---Check

Play Guitar better than Lil' Wayne?---Check

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#71

RE: Chord Thread

in PB Guitarstudio FORUMS Mon Nov 04, 2013 5:25 am
by dlraben • 278 Posts

Quote: diegopaudyal wrote in post #69
Thank you John, I will work on my basics.
I have one question for you. So I am studying this jazz book and it doesn't show me any chord shapes. So I am figuring out the shapes/voicings myself instead of looking it in the internet. I just came across C Maj7 #11 chord and my brain cannot process any shape. There are 5 notes in this chord and I have only 4 fretting fingers. How would you play this chord? I am guessing that there could be some notes in the chord that can be excluded. If so what notes are those?

I appreciate your help.

Diego, attached are a few shapes for a Maj7(#11) = Maj7(#4) = Maj7(b5) chord.

As Nick suggested, they do not include the perfect 5th. Not sure if his rationale is correct or not in general, but for this chord having a b5 and a 5 could sound pretty dissonant depending on how you grabbed them. If you had a bass player, or a backing track, you might also consider dropping the root.

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 Maj7(b5).JPG 
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#72

RE: Chord Thread

in PB Guitarstudio FORUMS Mon Nov 04, 2013 7:20 am
by diegopaudyal • 91 Posts

Thank You Nick and dlraben
The chord shapes helped a lot. Cheers!!


Don't just do it, Finish it!!
-Michael Angelo Batio
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#73

RE: Chord Thread

in PB Guitarstudio FORUMS Mon Nov 04, 2013 7:30 am
by JoelMedina • 72 Posts

Thanks for that last blurb Nick. I'm noticing from my jazz transcriptions that a perfect fifth is avoided like the plague for the most part. I personally think since there's less harmonic clutter the chords tend to "breath" more without it. Unless you're doing straight up rock or metal, I nix the perfect fifth often and only use it when it's called for.


Last edited Mon Nov 04, 2013 7:31 am | Scroll up

#74

RE: Chord Thread

in PB Guitarstudio FORUMS Mon Nov 04, 2013 7:40 am
by uderoche (deleted)
avatar

Quote: diegopaudyal wrote in post #69
Thank you John, I will work on my basics.
I have one question for you. So I am studying this jazz book and it doesn't show me any chord shapes. So I am figuring out the shapes/voicings myself instead of looking it in the internet. I just came across C Maj7 #11 chord and my brain cannot process any shape. There are 5 notes in this chord and I have only 4 fretting fingers. How would you play this chord? I am guessing that there could be some notes in the chord that can be excluded. If so what notes are those?

I appreciate your help.


The diagrams that dlraben posted are fine. The first one on his chart I use quite a lot for Maj7#11. I believe in all of those voicings the 5th is omitted. However, there are barre versions of the chord where you can include the 5th if you want. Just do a Google search and I'm sure you'll find them along with many others.

It's not a big deal to look up these voicings on the net. Everyone should be familiar with the standard guitar grips for particular chords. They are usually common for a reason. They tend to sound good and/or are the easiest to fret.

Having said that, if you wish to spell the chords out and come up with your own fingerings, that's great! And, of course, doing such things will raise questions such as "But I only have 4 fingers so what do I do?" This is a good thing. Questions hopefully lead to answers.

So, if the question is "What notes can I omit from a chord" that answer can be long and confusing, but it doesn't have to be.

Generally, the 5th can be omitted unless it is being altered (ie #5 or b5). You want to keep the notes that define the chord and give the chord it's qualities. When you start adding 7ths, 9ths, 11ths, 13ths the 5th becomes less of a defining tone and if you know your overtone series, the 5th will be heard in the root therefore, it can be left out.

To go a little further, jazz theory and classical theory are two different things. (The Common Practice Period and The 20th Century). Pebber has said this before in other threads. In classical theory, they had a fascination with resolving every tone of a chord. As convention stated, they would usually always include the 5th and only omit it if they couldn't resolve it correctly. The concept being to create tension and resolution. So, Bach really wanted to resolve things and Stravinsky didn't really care if he left you with that "unresolved" tense feeling. 20th century jazz and classical music doesn't really concern itself with these perceived limitations of resolution. It's more wide open. For instance, jazz guys hardly ever play the 5th of any chord.


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Last edited Mon Nov 04, 2013 7:43 am | Scroll up

#75

RE: Chord Thread

in PB Guitarstudio FORUMS Mon Nov 04, 2013 7:58 am
by NicholasJacquet (deleted)
avatar

for those classy enough to vox lead their chords paralalel 5th/ 8ve's all suck...That probably whjy your 5ths got the boot


Modoric Aknowledgements:

Play Guitar better than Fred Durst?---Check

Play Guitar better than Lil' Wayne?---Check

Play Guitar better than Franz Listz?---
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