OK so just clicked to me how Secondary Dominant chords & Tri-tone Substitution works.

Don't you just love those Eureka moments.

double post whoops!!

Yeah secondary dominants sure are great...I love how it sounds when shit gets tonicized...its almost like ordering food at a restaurant that specializes in exotic cuisines because its like each major and minor key offers a menu of closely related keys each with its own unique flavor.

I wonder how music that tonicizes and or modulates all over the place would be heard by those who do not relate to music intervallically like I do...I mean people to people with perfect pitch...would the taste that they experiece from say tonicising the key of iii (as opposed to say the flavor of the Key of IV) have some additional dimension to it from what I am able to experience?

Well i was experimenting B7/Em Am/A7/Dm G7/Db7/CMaj7

My son walks past saying that's sounds awful.
I said your ears just aint tuned for these amazing sounds

Now lets see if i have the theory right
The 3rd of the dominant wants to pull to the root of the resolving chord.
and the 7th want to pull to the 3rd of the resolving chord.

Now when you resolve to a minor7 chord you lose the 7th to 3rd pull because of the flatted 3rd.
so you could use altered chord say 9(b5) to resolve to minor chord. 7th resolves to the 5th.

The interval of 3rd to 7th of a dominant chord is a flatted fifth.
Now the chord a Flatted fifth or a tritone away from the dominant chord contains the same interval between the 3rd and 7th. it has the same two notes as the dominant reversed. so resolves well to the I chord.

Probably sounds like gibberish does to me now i've read it back lol!

b9th to 5th*
whoops

Hi deltadiscos,

Man I found it hard to follow along with what you were saying. Can we see a video of it. I would love to see the voicings that you are using. Or maybe post a transcription of it? I'm always looking for new voice leading ideas....

:D

This is for dlraben:

C7 chord samples.JPG - Bild entfernt (keine Rechte)

You could do something like this for each chord of a song you are working on.

Thanks John. Yeah, I do something similar but have stuck to scale tone numbers (1, b3, etc.) more than note letters. I really should do both.

Attached is the latest version of what I've typically used to practice. But as I wrote in my PM, I've recently been picking a set of changes (still simple: from a 1 chord vamp up to maybe a 4 bar loop) and have just worked on improvising musically over them. I'm finding that this is helping me way more than running the scales harmonically (or around the circle) up and down.

Again, I should do it all. For like another 20 years.

Quote: dlraben wrote in post #60

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Thanks John. Yeah, I do something similar but have stuck to scale tone numbers (1, b3, etc.) more than note letters. I really should do both.

Attached is the latest version of what I've typically used to practice. But as I wrote in my PM, I've recently been picking a set of changes (still simple: from a 1 chord vamp up to maybe a 4 bar loop) and have just worked on improvising musically over them. I'm finding that this is helping me way more than running the scales harmonically (or around the circle) up and down.

Again, I should do it all. For like another 20 years.

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Okay so I am learning how to play sheet music from this book. How do you play these chords?

Following the sheet below, i play the C on Low E string, E on the 5th string,G on the 4th string and B on the 3rd string. This is a big stretch for me but I try to play it anyway. Its complicated to play C Aug 7 or C 7 or any other given chords following the notes below.

I cannot follow the given notes and play these chords. How do you do it? Should I find some notes an octave higher or lower and figure out an easier shape to play?
Thank You
chord.jpg - Bild entfernt (keine Rechte)

I can't tell how close you are to grabbing those C Aug 7 and C 7, if you are close to being able to grab em, do stetching.
Pebber has an isometric routine, it has helped me a lot. Lastly if you just can't, I would recommend moving everything up 12 frets :) When I leave work I am going to see if I can grab em.

Yeah I've been following Pebbers isometrics technique a few weeks. Moving up 12 frets really made my left hand 2x easier.

Okay I have one more question atm. So I am learning these chord shapes. In order to make an add9 chord, do I have to add the 9th note (which is also the 2nd note but an octave higher) or I can add any 2nd note (higher or lower) instead of the 9th?

I mean If I want to play a C add9, can i play:
5th string 5th fret
4th string 5th fret
3rd string 5th fret
2nd string 5th fret

instead of playing the common open C add9 shape?

Thank you in advance.

Quote: diegopaudyal wrote in post #64

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Yeah I've been following Pebbers isometrics technique a few weeks. Moving up 12 frets really made my left hand 2x easier.

Okay I have one more question atm. So I am learning these chord shapes. In order to make an add9 chord, do I have to add the 9th note (which is also the 2nd note but an octave higher) or I can add any 2nd note (higher or lower) instead of the 9th?

I mean If I want to play a C add9, can i play:
5th string 5th fret
4th string 5th fret
3rd string 5th fret
2nd string 5th fret

instead of playing the common open C add9 shape?

Thank you in advance.

---

Okay cool. You helped me solve the confusion.
So as far as I understand to make any add chord, the "add note" should be on the top and not on the bass string right?

I have no idea what b6th/b13th and G6sus are. I will take a look into these chords after I finish my basics book.

I always thought that sus chords don't contain the 3rd. For example: 1,2,5(sus2) or 1,4,5(sus4). So shouldn't sus6 contain 1,6,5? Just making sure because you said "G D C E (sounds sus like - maybe G6sus?)" Honestly I didn't know until now that there is a sus6 chord until I read your reply. I thought only sus2 and sus4 existed. Excuse my poor chord knowledge.

Okay so I could think of these 3 C add 9 shapes atm that I can actually play on the guitar with no stretching problem.
C ADD 9 SHAPES.jpg - Bild entfernt (keine Rechte)

I appreciate your reply. Cheers!!

Hey diegopaudyal,

Here's what I got:

PB Forum - Chord Thread 1.jpg - Bild entfernt (keine Rechte)

PB Forum - Chord Thread 2.jpg - Bild entfernt (keine Rechte)

I have to tell you I really never use these fingerings. I don't even remember ever seeing the C ton chord before. The way they are notated on the staff that you have are just your generic voicings that can be played quite easily on the piano. But, on the guitar is another matter. I would start to look into other voicings like the drop 2's and drop 3's.

I think this sheet, like the one in the beginning of the Real Book, is just to show the formulas.

I could write out some of the drop 2's and 3's for you but its more fun to discover them yourself. I've briefly outlined the drop 2's and 3's earlier in this thread. Take a look at it and let me know what you think. Try writing them out kinda like what I did and post it...

:D

Quote: diegopaudyal wrote in post #66

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Okay cool. You helped me solve the confusion.
So as far as I understand to make any add chord, the "add note" should be on the top and not on the bass string right?

I have no idea what b6th/b13th and G6sus are. I will take a look into these chords after I finish my basics book.

I always thought that sus chords don't contain the 3rd. For example: 1,2,5(sus2) or 1,4,5(sus4). So shouldn't sus6 contain 1,6,5? Just making sure because you said "G D C E (sounds sus like - maybe G6sus?)" Honestly I didn't know until now that there is a sus6 chord until I read your reply. I thought only sus2 and sus4 existed. Excuse my poor chord knowledge.

Okay so I could think of these 3 C add 9 shapes atm that I can actually play on the guitar with no stretching problem.

I appreciate your reply. Cheers!!

---

Thank you John, I will work on my basics.
I have one question for you. So I am studying this jazz book and it doesn't show me any chord shapes. So I am figuring out the shapes/voicings myself instead of looking it in the internet. I just came across C Maj7 #11 chord and my brain cannot process any shape. There are 5 notes in this chord and I have only 4 fretting fingers. How would you play this chord? I am guessing that there could be some notes in the chord that can be excluded. If so what notes are those?

I appreciate your help.

This question takes me back to the days where I am sitting in my theory/analysis class and my proffesor is prattling on about how his first year theory students for some reason or another feel some irrational urge to always be part writing with complete chord voicings...omit the perfect fifth of the chord...it doesnt really bring much to the table anyways or contribute much to the chord...plus folks who dont know what they are doing will use them poorly in parrallell voices...doing so is very poor of taste.

Quote: diegopaudyal wrote in post #69

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Thank you John, I will work on my basics.
I have one question for you. So I am studying this jazz book and it doesn't show me any chord shapes. So I am figuring out the shapes/voicings myself instead of looking it in the internet. I just came across C Maj7 #11 chord and my brain cannot process any shape. There are 5 notes in this chord and I have only 4 fretting fingers. How would you play this chord? I am guessing that there could be some notes in the chord that can be excluded. If so what notes are those?

I appreciate your help.

---

Thank You Nick and dlraben
The chord shapes helped a lot. Cheers!!

Thanks for that last blurb Nick. I'm noticing from my jazz transcriptions that a perfect fifth is avoided like the plague for the most part. I personally think since there's less harmonic clutter the chords tend to "breath" more without it. Unless you're doing straight up rock or metal, I nix the perfect fifth often and only use it when it's called for.

Quote: diegopaudyal wrote in post #69

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Thank you John, I will work on my basics.
I have one question for you. So I am studying this jazz book and it doesn't show me any chord shapes. So I am figuring out the shapes/voicings myself instead of looking it in the internet. I just came across C Maj7 #11 chord and my brain cannot process any shape. There are 5 notes in this chord and I have only 4 fretting fingers. How would you play this chord? I am guessing that there could be some notes in the chord that can be excluded. If so what notes are those?

I appreciate your help.

---

for those classy enough to vox lead their chords paralalel 5th/ 8ve's all suck...That probably whjy your 5ths got the boot