#76

RE: Chord Thread

in PB Guitarstudio FORUMS Mon Nov 04, 2013 12:01 pm
by diegopaudyal • 91 Posts

Thank you for the insight Ursin. I appreciate it!!


Don't just do it, Finish it!!
-Michael Angelo Batio
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#77

RE: Chord Thread

in PB Guitarstudio FORUMS Tue Nov 05, 2013 7:27 pm
by John567 • 156 Posts

Heavy stuff from Ursin, eh?

"The Common Practice Period and The 20th Century"

I'm gonna have to look this up.

Here's my take on the CMa7#11

CMa7#11.jpg - Bild entfernt (keine Rechte)

In the first line I wrote out the CMa7 Drop 3's within the 6-2 string set. The next line shows the #11 instead of the 5. Basically, I use the standard fingering and move the G down a half step.

I really like the sound of these guys. I'm still working on getting used to the fingering but my "go to in the heat of the moment" is the Root Position one. Its pretty standard. I think its the first one in dlraben's examples.

A fun exercise is to take the regular voicings and start to shift the notes around and see what you come up with.

I hope this helps...

:D


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#78

RE: Chord Thread

in PB Guitarstudio FORUMS Sun Nov 17, 2013 6:20 pm
by pebberbrown • 867 Posts

What I used to do to learn chords really thoroughly was to take basic stringsets LOW-MIDDLE-HIGH (6543 - 5432- 4321) and then 6/432 and 5/321 - not to delve into ALL the other available stringsets for a while.

Then get the REAL BOOK, take an easy tune like BLUE BOSSA and then force yourself to play all the chords at the 3rd fret, then the 5th fret, then the 8th fret and so on up the neck. This is the MOST practical way to memorize lots of chords and you will be leaning TUNES as well. Takes some work but its the best way - thank you Joe Diorio, Russ Tuttle and Ted Greene - they ALL did this drill and showed it to me decades ago.

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#79

RE: Chord Thread

in PB Guitarstudio FORUMS Wed Nov 20, 2013 2:13 am
by deltadiscos • 301 Posts

Having a go at blue Bossa, so for scales would it be EbMajor & Dbmajor ??


You think you practice enough.......YOU DON'T!............PRACTICE MORE! Darryn U.K
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#80

RE: Chord Thread

in PB Guitarstudio FORUMS Wed Nov 20, 2013 7:32 am
by uderoche (deleted)
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Quote: deltadiscos wrote in post #79
Having a go at blue Bossa, so for scales would it be EbMajor & Dbmajor ??



Yeah but don't think "Eb major" think C minor. Then Db major.


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#81

RE: Chord Thread

in PB Guitarstudio FORUMS Sun Nov 24, 2013 7:38 am
by John567 • 156 Posts

Thats exactly the way I was shown to practice tunes when I started working from the Real Books. We also applied this idea to soloing as well. Its really hard to do to be able to comp in one position plus solo from the same position. I find that over time it seems to develop into the idea, at least for me, to have a scale position that is related to the chord that your playing at the moment.

So if I'm using a particular voicing like the Cm7 drop 2 (string set 5-2). You'll see that it takes place at the third fret. Now I believe Ursin said to use C Minor ("don't think "Eb major" think C minor"). So, here's my "position match" that I use for it:

Cm7 Cminor.jpg - Bild entfernt (keine Rechte)

So, the next thing to do is go through each chord and apply the same strategy that Pebber mentions. It really takes alot of time. Its the hardest thing to do.

What's neat is that the Dm7b5 can work with the same scale position. Here I'm showing the Dm7b5/C just to see how it relates to the same position. The Dm7b5 root position works well with this position.

Dm7b5 Cminor.jpg - Bild entfernt (keine Rechte)

There is actually a better fingering for this one. It's what I call the F dorian position but its really C minor cause were playing over the Im chord.

Finally my last example will be for the G7b9:

G7b9 CHminor.jpg - Bild entfernt (keine Rechte)

I could've went for the diminished scale but the C harmonic works too. What's cool is you can see that by changing one note makes all the difference in the world.

So, from here I would do what Pebber says and match in all the fingerings up. I'm still doing this for all the tunes I go through. It takes a while but well worth it.

Or you can play Xbox

:D


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#82

RE: Chord Thread

in PB Guitarstudio FORUMS Sun Nov 24, 2013 8:24 am
by deltadiscos • 301 Posts

Xbox ?

What position is that John??


You think you practice enough.......YOU DON'T!............PRACTICE MORE! Darryn U.K
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#83

RE: Chord Thread

in PB Guitarstudio FORUMS Sun Nov 24, 2013 8:43 am
by student • 146 Posts

Although I am not John, but what I think he meant by Xbox is the Satriani warmup


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#84

RE: Chord Thread

in PB Guitarstudio FORUMS Sun Nov 24, 2013 10:18 am
by John567 • 156 Posts

Holy Scheiße!

"xbox" was my attempt at humor (I meant the video game unit)! I didn't know there was an actual Satriani exercise! LOL!

My apologies to everyone in the forum.

LOL!

:D


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#85

RE: Chord Thread

in PB Guitarstudio FORUMS Sun Nov 24, 2013 11:02 am
by deltadiscos • 301 Posts

Aha!!! so i can finally say i'm going to play the XBOX without it being frowned upon lol!!!!


You think you practice enough.......YOU DON'T!............PRACTICE MORE! Darryn U.K
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#86

RE: Chord Thread

in PB Guitarstudio FORUMS Sun Nov 24, 2013 2:31 pm
by John567 • 156 Posts

Man, that was funny! Just what I needed before I go outside and shovel all that snow!

:D


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#87

RE: Chord Thread

in PB Guitarstudio FORUMS Mon Jan 06, 2014 5:56 am
by NNick • 4 Posts

not quite sure if this has been said and i didnt see but when i try to practice chords i usually pick a root note say c, and just review all the possibilities of chords i can make around c and really try to associate the shape with the sound. if you know what minor 7 flat 5 chords like against the root then youll know when its right to play during the middle of a melody for example.

another way is to invent a simple melody of say 2 or 3 bars or so. play it, and then try to play it with 2 note harmonies so that it still has the original character. (you can check your work to see if you stayed perfectly on key). if that become comfortable try it with triads and so on.

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#88

RE: Chord Thread

in PB Guitarstudio FORUMS Sun Jan 12, 2014 10:30 am
by diegopaudyal • 91 Posts

Suppose I am Playing AMajor, C#minor, F#minor, EMajor progression.

When playing/practicing chord progressions within a key, is it better to think of the name of each chords or to think of the roman numerals I, iii, vi, V in this case?

I know it is essential to think both the ways but how do you guys do it? Which one do you prefer?


Don't just do it, Finish it!!
-Michael Angelo Batio
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#89

RE: Chord Thread

in PB Guitarstudio FORUMS Sun Jan 12, 2014 4:41 pm
by John567 • 156 Posts

Hi diegopaudyal,

You mean just comping from a lead sheet? In the moment I just see the chord symbol and play the chord. I'm not thinking the roman numerals. Afterwards, if I were to transpose the song I would analyze the chords and see them as Roman Numerals.

Sometimes I'll see segments that stick out and help me remember the chord progression. Like a II V I or a IIm7b5 V7b9 Im, blues progressions....

Guys who are really good at it can transpose on the spot. I'm not that good.


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Last edited Sun Jan 12, 2014 4:43 pm | Scroll up

#90

RE: Chord Thread

in PB Guitarstudio FORUMS Sun Jan 12, 2014 5:47 pm
by NicholasJacquet (deleted)
avatar

Ultimately you dont want to be thinking about chord progressions because simply being able to hear them should be sufficient for all ones purposes.


Modoric Aknowledgements:

Play Guitar better than Fred Durst?---Check

Play Guitar better than Lil' Wayne?---Check

Play Guitar better than Franz Listz?---
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#91

RE: Chord Thread

in PB Guitarstudio FORUMS Sun Jan 12, 2014 6:24 pm
by diegopaudyal • 91 Posts

Quote: NicholasJacquet wrote in post #90
Ultimately you dont want to be thinking about chord progressions because simply being able to hear them should be sufficient for all ones purposes.


I am sure that is the ultimate goal but that does not answer my question. I am a beginner and I'd love to hear an answer from a beginners perspective. I am sure that there are certain ways you must think about things before you master it.

Your answer can be generalized to anything, not only to mastering an instrument.

I appreciate your reply.


Don't just do it, Finish it!!
-Michael Angelo Batio

Last edited Sun Jan 12, 2014 6:26 pm | Scroll up

#92

RE: Chord Thread

in PB Guitarstudio FORUMS Sun Jan 12, 2014 7:04 pm
by NicholasJacquet (deleted)
avatar

Itsabit paradoxical how easy things are after how hard it seems to be trying to master them. but for those not advanced enough to transpose any paganini caprice down a flat fifth and then sight-read them with sarod technique at 200 BPM there is the system of roman numeral classical thingamabobs. And its almost always to ones betterment spending time to better learn traditional harmonic analysis...spend sometimes hanging with these numerals from Rome...It will make you bettter as a musicaian (-:


Modoric Aknowledgements:

Play Guitar better than Fred Durst?---Check

Play Guitar better than Lil' Wayne?---Check

Play Guitar better than Franz Listz?---
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#93

RE: Chord Thread

in PB Guitarstudio FORUMS Sun Jan 12, 2014 9:00 pm
by diegopaudyal • 91 Posts

Quote: NicholasJacquet wrote in post #92
Itsabit paradoxical how easy things are after how hard it seems to be trying to master them. but for those not advanced enough to transpose any paganini caprice down a flat fifth and then sight-read them with sarod technique at 200 BPM there is the system of roman numeral classical thingamabobs. And its almost always to ones betterment spending time to better learn traditional harmonic analysis...spend sometimes hanging with these numerals from Rome...It will make you bettter as a musicaian (-:

Nick,
I do not understand if Paganini caprice, transpose, sight reading, sarod technique at 200bpm has anything to do with my simple chord progression question.

I thought that the whole purpose of this forum is to be helpful to your fellow members. I may be wrong, English is not my first language, but I find your reply very arrogant and non-motivating.

I don't know how this behavior of yours is acceptable on the forum.

Hi John,
Sorry I did not notice your reply earlier. I don't mean from a lead sheet. I mean when playing random chord progressions from your head without looking at any paper.


Don\'t just do it, Finish it!!
-Michael Angelo Batio

Last edited Sun Jan 12, 2014 9:04 pm | Scroll up

#94

RE: Chord Thread

in PB Guitarstudio FORUMS Sun Jan 12, 2014 9:51 pm
by NicholasJacquet (deleted)
avatar

My point is that unless you are already basically the jesus on the guitar and are already so good that you can do all those unreasonably hard (probably impossible) feats of guitar , that in fact: that by learning the whole roman numeral system you can really grow as a musician big time!!!

also I have started messing with some chordal playing of my own as of recently...I didnt reallize how freaking hard these chord things can be...


Modoric Aknowledgements:

Play Guitar better than Fred Durst?---Check

Play Guitar better than Lil' Wayne?---Check

Play Guitar better than Franz Listz?---
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#95

RE: Chord Thread

in PB Guitarstudio FORUMS Mon Jan 13, 2014 12:43 am
by Justip • 41 Posts

yo diegopuudyal
I usually learn the names of the chords and the grips on different string sets, then see where the chords fit into a chord scale even before I think about roman numerals system. earlier somewhere in this thread the topic of harmonizing scales was addressed. So I hope that helps. hmm Gm Adim Bb vs G Am Bm lol.

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#96

RE: Chord Thread

in PB Guitarstudio FORUMS Mon Jan 13, 2014 4:56 am
by John567 • 156 Posts

Zitat
Sorry I did not notice your reply earlier. I don't mean from a lead sheet. I mean when playing random chord progressions from your head without looking at any paper.



From the above quote you say "when playing random chord progressions from your head without looking at any paper". So, I gather you mean in the context of learning a song. Yes? To me the word "head" means melody of a song. So I'm assuming you mean you are learning a song and you want to know how you should think about the chords with regards to the song you are learning. Am I right?

Well, you say that you are a beginner. So, I'll tell you my take on it:

When you are learning a song I would just concentrate on memorizing it. For a simple song (and complex ones as well) you got two or three things to attack:

1. Learn the melody
2. Learn the chords
3. Solo/Improvise (only if it applies to your genre of music).

Now I'm assuming that you are learning by ear since you are not using a lead sheet. Or you could be using TAB? Anyway, with regards to the chords I would just learn them by playing them over and over until they become apart of you. Its like anything else. I find lead sheets helpful because of the organization is already done and I don't have to worry about it.

If you know the chords I would just write them out on a piece of paper like this (from a previous example):

AMajor, C#minor, F#minor, EMajor

I would write it out this way:

A / / / C#m / / / F#m / / / E / / /

All the slashes mean is that you are strumming each chord four beat per bar (or whatever rhythm your song has). I would start practicing them over and over slowly to build up your endurance. It should get to the point where you can just look at your hands and not the sheet any more. Then after a while of looking at your hands you should be able to just LOOK AWAY from your hands and see the image of the chords flash in your mind as you play them.

If you don't know these chord forms I would apply Pebber's approach to practicing chords for beginners. You will have to look for it in his videos online. I can't remember where.

Now getting back to what I think the original question was. For me, the RM system (roman numeral) isn't necessary at the beginning. But it is important when you get into understand the harmonic structure of a song. Like if you want to know what key a song is in, what scale goes with what chord, etc. If you want to start practicing the RM stuff I would suggest the following:

-Write out all of the major scales in one octave and apply the RM for each note...
-Get into the habit of trying to figure out what key a song is in...
-Ask yourself Q/A's like "what note is the third degree in the Key or A Major?" the answer is .....?
-Ask yourself Q/A's like "C# is the third degree of what major scale? the answer is .... ?

When this gets boring try the stuff NNick was talking about in his answer. But I wouldn't go there until I had a basic vocabulary of chords. His answer is more advanced. Its the kind of stuff you think about when you voice lead or when you are dealing with a chord melody. It is fun when you get the hang of it though...

This was my rant of the day. I hope that this helps somehow. I think I did get back on topic to the original question.....

:D


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#97

RE: Chord Thread

in PB Guitarstudio FORUMS Thu Jan 16, 2014 6:27 pm
by diegopaudyal • 91 Posts

Hi John,
Thank you for that info. That is a big help. I appreciate it!!


Don't just do it, Finish it!!
-Michael Angelo Batio
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#98

RE: Chord Thread

in PB Guitarstudio FORUMS Tue Jan 21, 2014 3:37 am
by Justip • 41 Posts

been picking up on your idea of random chords. Still attempting to ue the CAGED system to find all positions of chords then writing them down. That is attempt to get the Key(s) of the song and using the CAGED system play the progression in different blocks of 5-4 frets going up and down the fingerboard so you would play for example A, C#m, F#m, E in the 2nd 5th to fret, then play the same chords at the 5th fret then grap another position on the neck and play the same chords. e.g A, C#m F#m E using different postions on the fret board. the voicings are very unique each time.

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#99

RE: Chord Thread

in PB Guitarstudio FORUMS Thu Jan 23, 2014 8:08 am
by uderoche (deleted)
avatar

Quote: diegopaudyal wrote in post #93
Quote: NicholasJacquet wrote in post #92
Itsabit paradoxical how easy things are after how hard it seems to be trying to master them. but for those not advanced enough to transpose any paganini caprice down a flat fifth and then sight-read them with sarod technique at 200 BPM there is the system of roman numeral classical thingamabobs. And its almost always to ones betterment spending time to better learn traditional harmonic analysis...spend sometimes hanging with these numerals from Rome...It will make you bettter as a musicaian (-:

Nick,
I do not understand if Paganini caprice, transpose, sight reading, sarod technique at 200bpm has anything to do with my simple chord progression question.

I thought that the whole purpose of this forum is to be helpful to your fellow members. I may be wrong, English is not my first language, but I find your reply very arrogant and non-motivating.

I don't know how this behavior of yours is acceptable on the forum.



His behavior is not acceptable. Nick, if you continue to piss off other students and belittle them with your know it all attitude, you will be banned from this forum.


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#100

RE: Chord Thread

in PB Guitarstudio FORUMS Thu Jan 23, 2014 7:36 pm
by John567 • 156 Posts

Learning Chords Rant:

I don't know why. I just have the need to rant. Forgive me.

The CAGED system in one way to do it and whats interesting is that no matter what system (Left Hand fingerings) that you are implementing, just make sure you make it work for you. If I'm correct, I think Django Reinhardt only had two fingers on his left hand that were healthy enough to use. His lines were pretty kickass. At least I think so.

Also, I would like to add that when you take on this stuff, consider where you want to end up. If you have no interest in jazz music then don't go there for the most part. Just stick to one genre for now. Yeah, we would all love to be Lenny Breau-at least I would, but he was a very special person in a very special situation. And that's not to say you can't become very good at playing, but just focus on something you really want.

So, when you consider learning chords, just remember the context. When people talk about Holdsworth, its usually about his legato playing and there's really no one who has done what he has done on the guitar with respect to his style. In fact, when you listen to a lot of fusion players, you can definitely hear the hold of Holdsworth. Its just fact.

But, consider this: his chord playing is not as emphasized as much among guys that I've talked too. I just don't know why. He has some of the most crazy and unusual chord voicings and progressions that I have ever heard. If you ever want to hear where learning chords might take you people should take another listen to his compositions. They are quite remarkable.

Now, here is someone that concentrated on a very focused style of picking and comping. For instants, does Holdsworth posses a RH technique like Lenny Breau? Could one be able to do both? Who knows... but What Holdsworth did for improvising (his unique style), I think Lenny Breau did for RH technique. His use of harmonics for example, etc. His command of harmony was legend. He really played the guitar like a piano.

So for some learning resources I think you can't go wrong with listen to both of these guys. Just keep learning those chords and inversion, voicings, drop 2's, etc... it will eventually lead somewhere.

John's rant of the day.

:D


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