#1

On other teachers not teaching the CAGED system

in PB Guitarstudio FORUMS Fri Feb 28, 2014 12:43 pm
by flushandswirl • 5 Posts

Before I found PB, I had a few guitar teachers whom I did not learn much from. I remember asking one particular teacher what his thoughts were on the CAGED system. To my surprise he said he never heard of it. This piqued my interest because I had only been familiar with guitar for a few years and had heard it mentioned several times, whereas this guy had 30 plus years of experience and NEVER heard of it.

I understand that there is more than one road to the center, but poking around the internet I found somebody with a similar problem. In this guys case, the teacher discouraged studying theory and the CAGED system. His teacher's view is that you only need to know the chromatic scale (and the rest of the approach I can sum up as "feelings" and understanding intervals without actually knowing theory?).

I am not able to post links on this forum, otherwise I would love to post the link to the discussion forum as well as the link to his teacher's playing. (I feel like I've tried everything and I just can't get it to work). Hearing him play would make this post more clear because it sounds poorly written and played. He studied jazz at Berklee.

I am interested in hearing other's thoughts on this. It seems like guys like this don't teach it because they don't know it... but I could be off base here if the CAGED system is not actually something that is widely accepted. Does anybody think otherwise or agree? Thanks!

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#2

RE: On other teachers not teaching the CAGED system

in PB Guitarstudio FORUMS Fri Feb 28, 2014 2:16 pm
by deltadiscos • 310 Posts

Self taught and the biggest discovery for me, after Pebber, Would be the caged system after 20 years of playing.
It finally all came together some bloke off the old musicians channel explained it every player should learn this in my opinion


You think you practice enough.......YOU DON'T!............PRACTICE MORE! Darryn U.K
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#3

RE: On other teachers not teaching the CAGED system

in PB Guitarstudio FORUMS Fri Feb 28, 2014 4:00 pm
by NicholasJacquet (deleted)
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I had similiar experiences with other teachers during my three years that I have been playing guitar (now that I have 20/20 hindsight, I know they didnt know shit) last one I had told me that he that this whole sarod right hand thing I was messing around/experimenting with was nothing more than some adolescents way of wanting to make tremello picking and thatt it was a mistake for my technique...I have not seen him since as I ended my lessons with him immediately after he looked down upon the sarod...thats to bad though, because if given a chance encounter with him, i think i would wanna bust out some sarod diddys to see what he thinks about it...because if it really is bad technique...why does it allow me to suddenly pick stuff that if easily double the speed threshold that his proported picking technique affords him...normaly I think that rubbing stuff in a peoples faces is not worth thinking about....but man I would enjoy it given that one opportunity.


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#4

RE: On other teachers not teaching the CAGED system

in PB Guitarstudio FORUMS Fri Feb 28, 2014 8:11 pm
by Scottulus • 222 Posts

Weird, most serious Berklee folks are all about learning stuff whatever way they can. CAGED is awesome, it's pattern recognition and relationships that really help to demystify the guitar's scale-chord containers, and helps a lot once one starts down the path of being a serious student as far as arranging/theory/improvisation/reading/ear-training etc etc

I think that the proof is in the pudding; if it sounds good then it probably is. I also think that anyone can teach you something, and that you should keep an open mind lest you miss something valuable, which would be foolish especially over something as trivial as a disagreement in picking styles. I mean, Bach played on tuned garbage cans is still Bach...


http://www.scottkerrmusic.com
http://www.youtube.com/Scottulus
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#5

RE: On other teachers not teaching the CAGED system

in PB Guitarstudio FORUMS Fri Feb 28, 2014 8:14 pm
by Scottulus • 222 Posts
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#6

RE: On other teachers not teaching the CAGED system

in PB Guitarstudio FORUMS Fri Feb 28, 2014 10:34 pm
by uderoche (deleted)
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CAGED system is fine. Just a way of organizing notes on the fretboard. Most guitarists I know that have a decent knowledge of the fretboard have had some exposure to the CAGED system. I have heard rumors that Joe Pass only knew the CAGED system. True? I don't know but I think it can take you pretty far. As for the Berklee cats, I never went there so I don't know what they teach now. I know some old guys who went there and they didn't use CAGED. Berklee had it's own numbering system that I find confusing so I never got into it much. Pebber may be familiar as he did go to Berklee back in the day.

Myself personally, I don't think of the CAGED system as anything other than the 5 Position system. I know what the CAGED system is, but I don't really think about it in that way. I think about any scale being broken into a 5 Position system...CAGED being one of those. Generally speaking most guitarists will break ANY scale down into 5 positions on the neck. You can go further. MUCH further. But CAGED is a good place to start I think.

I haven't met anyone who personally has a problem with it so I don't know what the arguments against it would be.

Regardless, most people know scales in 5 or more positions. 5 is very basic. Pebber's system has something like 32 positions. I am always working on the 14 position system and 5 position versions of various scales and Pebbers scaletone system. The CAGED system is very basic compared to some of this other stuff so, take any criticism of it with a grain of salt.

You can learn a bunch of licks and be able to play them really fast but that doesn't necessarily mean you understand the fretboard.


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Last edited Fri Feb 28, 2014 10:36 pm | Scroll up

#7

RE: On other teachers not teaching the CAGED system

in PB Guitarstudio FORUMS Sun Mar 02, 2014 3:19 am
by Justip • 41 Posts

this might sound a bit mad, I've only been working on Pebber's stuff for about a year (Hence haven't made a video post). I'd never heard of scale systems caged or other types of scales systems. The CAGED It is one of the most important building blocks before the other scale systems. It shouldn't be underrated or ingnored.
The way Pebber has taught the CAGED system on Youtube also increases chords vocabulary up and down the fretboard, which is also impotant.

How any one can argue against the CAGED system is beyond me.

I live close to the bottom of the earth, not many people seem to know about it let alone the other scales systems.

How many people seem ignorant to it is also beyond me.

And yes Pebber you do teach it well on Youtube.

That's my rant over about the ignorance of it.

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#8

RE: On other teachers not teaching the CAGED system

in PB Guitarstudio FORUMS Sun Mar 02, 2014 6:47 am
by uderoche (deleted)
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If you go onto the website under Lesson PDF then Guitar Student PDF files. Scroll down and you will see 5 POS SYSTEM LARGE. Download that and start working on it. Major, minor, harmonic minor, melodic minor, minor pentatonic, major pentatonic, melodic minor pentatonic, harmonic minor pentatonic, major arpeggios, minor arpeggios, Mi/Maj7 arpeggios, the blues scale. It's all there broken down into a 5 position system.


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#9

RE: On other teachers not teaching the CAGED system

in PB Guitarstudio FORUMS Tue Mar 11, 2014 10:36 am
by pebberbrown • 878 Posts

Mostly at Berklee the over riding system is the one developed by Willaim G. Leavitt, which is a 12 position system (same as Russ Tuttle) - He doesnt address it in any of his sightreading books, per se, one only gets fragments of it but its the main system that the advanced players get taught over there. Each individual private lesson instructor has their own way of doing it though and you will find many teach the CAGED system and the 7 pos system. These days there are so many different instructors over there with so many different points of view it would be difficult to determine WHAT they are teaching as a "Berklee Method." The CAGED system is an entry level system at best and so many people belabor over it for way too long and for way too many years without expanding it beyond 5 positions. Sometimes you just have to realize its time to put on your Cap and Gown and fucking well graduate from the CAGED system. Its so basic - its so beginner level that you must quickly move on as soon as you can.

The Scaletone form system is a much more refined system using stringpairs and string groups of 2 strings and 3 strings at a time. You start with 3 notes on each string of a string pair. 6th and 5th string make a string pair, 6-5-4 strings make a string group or stringset. 3 notes on each stringpair, then 3/4, then 4/3, then 4/4 notes on each stringpair.
Then you use 6-5-4 stringgroup with 3/3/3, 3/3/4, 3/4/3, 4/3/3, then 3/4/4, 4/3/4, 4/4/3, and 4/4/4 notes on each string of the string group. Then you move up each scaletone creating forms of each stringpair/stringgroup combination for each scaletone - scaletone 7 starts all forms(positions) based on the 7th note of the scale (usually viewed in normal nomenclature as postition I) so scaletone 7 form 2 would be 6-5 (3/3), 4-3 (3-3) and 2-1 (3-3) meaning for each pair of strings you would have 3 notes on each string of the pair. Scaletone 7 form 3 would again start on the 7th tone of the scale and then you would derive stringpair 6-5 as (3/4), so for the G Major scale the notes would be on each stringpair (6th string F#, G, A), (5th string B, C, D, E). This 3/4 pattern/shape would repeat every stringpair so that (6=F#, G, A, 5=B,C,D,E, 4th=F#,G,A, 3rd=B,C,D,E, 2nd=F#,G,A, and 1st=B,C,D,E. This is a 3/4 pattern on the three stringpairs.

This matrix continues on with all the stringpairs of 2 streings each then the stringgroups of 3 strings each and then stringsets of 4 strings each. This is the Scaletone Form System.

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#10

RE: On other teachers not teaching the CAGED system

in PB Guitarstudio FORUMS Wed Mar 12, 2014 5:38 am
by deltadiscos • 310 Posts

Thats great stuff Pebber. just when I think there was no other ways to play the scale tone system. so 4 string groups would be
3-3-3-3 / 3-3-3-4/ 3-3-4-3/ 3-4-3-3/ 4-3-3-3/ 3-3-4-4/ 3-4-3-4/ 4-3-3-4/ 3-4-4-3/ 4-3-4-3/
4-4-3-3/ 3-4-4-4/ 4-4-4-3/ 4-4-3-4/ 4-3-4-4/ 4-4-4-4/

Probably missed some permutations now to work out 5 string groups ha ha!


You think you practice enough.......YOU DON'T!............PRACTICE MORE! Darryn U.K
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#11

RE: On other teachers not teaching the CAGED system

in PB Guitarstudio FORUMS Fri Mar 14, 2014 10:31 am
by pebberbrown • 878 Posts

Actually, what you listed are the NPS permutations of how many notes are on each string.

4 String groups or stringsets are organized
as follows:

6543, 5432, 4321,
6/432, 5/321, then

6/321, 65/32, 65/3/1, 65/21,
6/43/1, 6/4/21, 543/1, 54/21.

You can group the NPS permuations along with
the 4 string groups. 3-3-3-3 NPS on Stringsets 6543, 5432, 4321 is
a starting point. It takes a few hours to map them all out!!!
It takes a few YEARS to practice them!

The 3 string patterns and the 4 string patterns
can also overlap in addition to the 4 string patterns
leaving 2 extra strings which one must decide
3-3, 3-4, 4-3, 4-4 etc.

Some guys have argued with me about "What about 2-2 and 2-3 and 3-2
you are leaving out 2!" Yeah well those patterns with 2 strings are not
that useful or practical - if you try playing them you will quickly see
the "WTF" factor present itself immediately!


Last edited Fri Mar 14, 2014 10:38 am | Scroll up

#12

RE: On other teachers not teaching the CAGED system

in PB Guitarstudio FORUMS Fri Mar 28, 2014 6:10 pm
by Scottulus • 222 Posts

"sometimes you just have to realize its time to put on your Cap and Gown and fucking well graduate from the CAGED system."


Yep.


http://www.scottkerrmusic.com
http://www.youtube.com/Scottulus
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#13

RE: On other teachers not teaching the CAGED system

in PB Guitarstudio FORUMS Sun Mar 30, 2014 2:56 pm
by Guitar Player • 83 Posts

Quote: uderoche wrote in post #6
CAGED system is fine. Just a way of organizing notes on the fretboard. Most guitarists I know that have a decent knowledge of the fretboard have had some exposure to the CAGED system. I have heard rumors that Joe Pass only knew the CAGED system. True? I don't know but I think it can take you pretty far. As for the Berklee cats, I never went there so I don't know what they teach now. I know some old guys who went there and they didn't use CAGED. Berklee had it's own numbering system that I find confusing so I never got into it much. Pebber may be familiar as he did go to Berklee back in the day.

Myself personally, I don't think of the CAGED system as anything other than the 5 Position system. I know what the CAGED system is, but I don't really think about it in that way. I think about any scale being broken into a 5 Position system...CAGED being one of those. Generally speaking most guitarists will break ANY scale down into 5 positions on the neck. You can go further. MUCH further. But CAGED is a good place to start I think.

I haven't met anyone who personally has a problem with it so I don't know what the arguments against it would be.

Regardless, most people know scales in 5 or more positions. 5 is very basic. Pebber's system has something like 32 positions. I am always working on the 14 position system and 5 position versions of various scales and Pebbers scaletone system. The CAGED system is very basic compared to some of this other stuff so, take any criticism of it with a grain of salt.

You can learn a bunch of licks and be able to play them really fast but that doesn't necessarily mean you understand the fretboard.


There is all kinds of ways to play scales. I have never learned any of the scale systems(I really should to be honest because it is very good way to get familar with all of the notes on the neck). I remember something that Pebber said in the video(s) he did on scale sequences about how some guitarists play scales and sequences in ways that comfortable for them. Like Pebber posted in this topic there is so many permutations which will take any guitar player years to learn.

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