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#26

RE: Picking Improvement

in PB Guitarstudio FORUMS Fri Jul 26, 2013 3:17 pm
by Tom (deleted)
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No worries, mate :-)

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#27

RE: Picking Improvement

in PB Guitarstudio FORUMS Fri Jul 26, 2013 9:18 pm
by Scottulus • 222 Posts

Quote: NicholasJacquet wrote in post #21
Damn I wanna see some these scalpal techniques that people got going...I would have thought it impossible to scalpal relaxed 16ths at 160 bpm without it just beeing something like

e|-5-5-5-5--7-7-7-7--8-8-8-8-7-7-7-7-----------

Come to think of it, I am not sure I can beleive without first seeing.


Hrumph. Do I take offence to this, or no? Ahhh well, it IS the internet...

Well, I am going to say this; if it is not possible to play 16th notes at 160 via Scalpel then I am wasting my time. Please verify that it is NOT possible, or I will continue. I can easily do 16ths at 160 with my existing 'wrong picking' technique, and no, not 'just' tremolos. Scalpel is a new technique to me, so I'm just getting the hang of it, learning where to position, etc. Obviously I am working out tremolos first, but I am not too far behind with scalar stuff, chords and arps. And I am incorporating it into existing playing, seems to be working out... but... There's always someone out there who will say something isn't possible just because they are unwilling to put the time in, and exercise some imagination...

Useful aspects of playing that fast? Are you kidding me? I like Yngwie, Eric Johnson, Steve Morse, Paul Gilbert and John Petrucci. Bach, Paganini, Stravinsky. Parker, Armstrong, Thelonious Monk, Coltrane. Dimeola, Delucia and McLaughlin. Playing along with recordings is a big deal to me, it's how I burn music into my DNA, so finding an economical, practical technique/method of playing fast is very important. It's just an element, but it's an important one to me. Imagine a drummer in any genre incapable of doing a snare roll? Oh yeah... it's as important as you make it.

I have included a video of me just 'jamming out'. Nothing specific, and I'm just playing whatever comes to mind in whatever way feels natural. I'm slowly incorporating scalpel into my playing, (Notice the slightly sloppy pentatonics in groupings of 5?) trying to play some music instead of just 1-2-3-4 stuff, I will however post a progress video of that sort of thing, as I sense that I'm maybe not being taken to seriously... I'm not screwing around, I'm a real player who doesn't have time to waste, so I am going to move fast. When I post here, it's to try to either help out or see if anyone else has any information that can help me push through a block/barrier. But since I have to now establish credibility, here goes. Then I guess I can get back to my music questions, lol.

Here is a quick video establishing that I can play. I'm not the best, but I have some chops and I don't lie about what I can or can not do. A Detailed technique video coming momentarily.

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#28

RE: Picking Improvement

in PB Guitarstudio FORUMS Fri Jul 26, 2013 10:26 pm
by Scottulus • 222 Posts

So, here is a demonstration that hopefully clarifies what I am trying to say;

I made a video showing a few easy things;1234 going up each string. First segment, I play 16th notes at 160 using my 'old/wrong' technique, THEN in the next segment I play 16ths using scalpel picking, a new and alien technique to me, but I've got it at 132bpm or so and pretty synched - Not too far behind. The 3rd segment I play just tremolos at 152 BPM, and then crap out a bit at 160, which is my wall on every string using Scalpel picking. The next segment I try to just noodle using the metronome as a groove, and employing mostly scalpel picking.

Yes, I have a routine where I play all of my scales, chords, all fingerings in all 12 keys, arpeggios, etc. What I am interested in developing right now is picking technique; As such that is why I posted simplistic stuff; I will re-integrate more musical playing and practice once the technique becomes more readily available. Currently, I use scalpel for all of my sight-reading studies also.

So where I'm at is a 'wall' at 160bpm. Sometimes I break it, sometimes I don't; but it is consistently there for the last bit... Perhaps an incremental metronome where I can go up by ones is in order, or maybe I'm just impatient. lol I just wanna play, and I feel that it isn't too much to expect to be able to build upon my existing musical and technical experience. Maybe a good 6 months will yield the results I'm looking for!
I do notice that my picking hand's middle finger curls over to support my first finger ala John McLaughlin. Trying to break the habit, but it feels like I need the support; Any ideas?

Anyways, hopefully these videos are of use to others, enjoy!

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#29

RE: Picking Improvement

in PB Guitarstudio FORUMS Sat Jul 27, 2013 6:56 am
by Tom (deleted)
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About the 160 wall, I've got a friend I play with. He's played for 30 years and is reasonably fast. He set a special training camp for himself for a month to get faster, but says now he got no faster. He's open to new ideas so I gave him a different alternate picking run to practice and said to stay below whatever his wall is at, then, instead of trying at the wall, set the metronome +20 above and just play 5-15 minutes trying to keep up with and don't care that it's off-beat or difficult, just don't quit. I'm no guitar teacher but from my drunken recollection, he trem'd at 4 per click at 220 and alternate picked 4 notes very sloppy at 175. His right hand was getting ahead of the left. He'llprobably peactice upwards 150-160 and then setitto 190-200 just for the workout. I'll keep me updated and see that he does it. Anyway, might be worth trying.

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#30

RE: Picking Improvement

in PB Guitarstudio FORUMS Sat Jul 27, 2013 7:43 am
by Scottulus • 222 Posts

Quote: Tom wrote in post #29
About the 160 wall, I've got a friend I play with. He's played for 30 years and is reasonably fast. He set a special training camp for himself for a month to get faster, but says now he got no faster. He's open to new ideas so I gave him a different alternate picking run to practice and said to stay below whatever his wall is at, then, instead of trying at the wall, set the metronome +20 above and just play 5-15 minutes trying to keep up with and don't care that it's off-beat or difficult, just don't quit. I'm no guitar teacher but from my drunken recollection, he trem'd at 4 per click at 220 and alternate picked 4 notes very sloppy at 175. His right hand was getting ahead of the left. He'llprobably peactice upwards 150-160 and then setitto 190-200 just for the workout. I'll keep me updated and see that he does it. Anyway, might be worth trying.



Yeah, that sounds like not a bad idea, thanks! I think Petrucci does something like that to 'trick' his picking hand into believing that a higher speed is actually a relief! Good idea.

I'm not looking to become the fastest guitarist on the planet, I could give a rat's ass. What I AM looking for is a way to be able to match myself using a more relaxed technique. Maybe clean stuff up a bit, and keep my poor shoulder and arm from falling off! lol

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#31

RE: Picking Improvement

in PB Guitarstudio FORUMS Sat Jul 27, 2013 3:02 pm
by deltadiscos • 310 Posts

Shawn lane around 2:43


You think you practice enough.......YOU DON'T!............PRACTICE MORE! Darryn U.K
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#32

RE: Picking Improvement

in PB Guitarstudio FORUMS Sat Jul 27, 2013 5:24 pm
by uderoche (deleted)
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Quote: Scottulus wrote in post #30
Quote: Tom wrote in post #29
About the 160 wall, I've got a friend I play with. He's played for 30 years and is reasonably fast. He set a special training camp for himself for a month to get faster, but says now he got no faster. He's open to new ideas so I gave him a different alternate picking run to practice and said to stay below whatever his wall is at, then, instead of trying at the wall, set the metronome +20 above and just play 5-15 minutes trying to keep up with and don't care that it's off-beat or difficult, just don't quit. I'm no guitar teacher but from my drunken recollection, he trem'd at 4 per click at 220 and alternate picked 4 notes very sloppy at 175. His right hand was getting ahead of the left. He'llprobably peactice upwards 150-160 and then setitto 190-200 just for the workout. I'll keep me updated and see that he does it. Anyway, might be worth trying.





Yeah, that sounds like not a bad idea, thanks! I think Petrucci does something like that to 'trick' his picking hand into believing that a higher speed is actually a relief! Good idea.

I'm not looking to become the fastest guitarist on the planet, I could give a rat's ass. What I AM looking for is a way to be able to match myself using a more relaxed technique. Maybe clean stuff up a bit, and keep my poor shoulder and arm from falling off! lol



Scott

You can do anything with scalpel. Some on the forum are way off into sarod and feel scalpel is a waste of time. They are sorely mistaken.

The key is to work on your scalpel and wrist movement separately (no stiff arm) and then combine the two. It will be very very fast. You can also work on sarod and work that in.

If you are looking for a relaxed technique as you say, and are trying to move away from stiff arm picking, keep working on the scalpel and the wrist and then work on combining the two.

You seem like you know how to practice so, in time, it will come together for you.

You can also investigate sarod and mix that in as well.

The key is to mix the techniques together and not rely on one. And of course, stiff arm picking just sounds bad.


YouTube www.youtube.com/ursinderoche
Facebook www.facebook.com/ursinderoche

Last edited Sat Jul 27, 2013 5:26 pm | Scroll up

#33

RE: Picking Improvement

in PB Guitarstudio FORUMS Sun Jul 28, 2013 4:17 am
by NicholasJacquet (deleted)
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By no means do I think scalpal a waste of time...lol...

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#34

RE: Picking Improvement

in PB Guitarstudio FORUMS Sun Jul 28, 2013 4:30 am
by NicholasJacquet (deleted)
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And the only reason I cannot beleive without seeing that it is possible (with the exceptions being when someone is a virtuosso) to develope such an articulate, flexible. and blistering scalpal such as to play most types of 16th note phrases @ 160 BPM is because I have spent the last year+ working on picking both scalpal and sarod for 10+ hours a day...Nowhere during any of the afforementioned time frame have I gotten such a non tremello (while still being accurate) scalpal pure...Mind you, Mr Scott...I am NOT talking about scalpal with a bunch of trill and hybrid technique mixed in...I mean a pure scalpal 16th at 160 BPM with things like string skipping or even for that matter string crossing....If any of you could even show some directional scalpal playing at 16ths 160 BPM that would be enough for me to beleive.


Last edited Sun Jul 28, 2013 4:34 am | Scroll up

#35

RE: Picking Improvement

in PB Guitarstudio FORUMS Sun Jul 28, 2013 4:47 am
by NicholasJacquet (deleted)
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For that matter If there is anyone out there who can take ANY trill permutation of their choice @ 16ths 160 BPM...And then proceide to eat up all four parts of each beat of the trill using ONLY scalpal pure that would be enough for me to beleive. And while I bet guys like Pebber, Frakh, and Ursin can do it already...that is the challange i issue to everyone else on this thread...It would make me very happy to see someone who has worked hard enough on scalpal to prove me wrong by posting such a feat on video (-:


Last edited Sun Jul 28, 2013 4:55 am | Scroll up

#36

RE: Picking Improvement

in PB Guitarstudio FORUMS Sun Jul 28, 2013 5:19 am
by dlraben • 278 Posts

Scott, in this one I show what I meant in case my PM to you wasn't quite clear.

Nick, here's the forums 20th+ attempt, and my 3rd or 4th attempt, to tell you that you're practicing incorrectly. None of us can really know for sure whether you're improving slowly, or whether you're flat out wasting your time. The three (most important?) things that you really need to work on are 1) improving your audio quality so your guitar and metronome can be heard clearly, 2) PLAYING IN TIME, and 3) reading, pondering, appreciating, and implementing any and all feedback you receive. It's only well after doing that when one can possibly understand WHY someone gave it to you and whether it was good or bad feedback for your personal development. You shouldn't have a clue whether it's good 15-20 minutes after someone gives it to you. You don't do seem to ever do this.

No one dislikes you personally. None of us even knows you at all. DON'T TAKE FEEDBACK PERSONALLY. We are all unknown to each other (for the most part). The only common thread we share is that we all want to excel at playing music using the guitar.

So forget all this other teenage behavior (who can play faster than who, who understand some non-practical archaic piece of music theory, etc., etc.) and sign on to the imaginary contract that all other posters seem to have signed. Help other posters on topics that you have ALREADY obtained proficiency in. Ask other posters for help on topics that you recognize you need to improve upon. And consider staying silent otherwise! I'll repeat what I've told you already, you're running the risk of forum posters just flat out ignoring you. (Heck, I'm running that risk myself in typing this to you). But consider that and figure out if that's something you would be happy with. I suspect it's not.

Anyway, I hope this helps someone. Now back to my morning coffee...

Edit: Nick, I see you've edited your last post to be a bit more tame. Kudos to you for doing that!!


Last edited Sun Jul 28, 2013 5:20 am | Scroll up

#37

RE: Picking Improvement

in PB Guitarstudio FORUMS Sun Jul 28, 2013 6:01 am
by NicholasJacquet (deleted)
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Dang MR Laben!#! thats one rediculously fast scalpal...I am most impressed!!!!!!!!!!!! (edit:!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!)


Last edited Sun Jul 28, 2013 6:02 am | Scroll up

#38

RE: Picking Improvement

in PB Guitarstudio FORUMS Sun Jul 28, 2013 6:03 am
by NicholasJacquet (deleted)
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I am going to shot a video to show where my scalpal is and hopefully with your knowledge of the technique you can tell me how to get it like you have.

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#39

RE: Picking Improvement

in PB Guitarstudio FORUMS Sun Jul 28, 2013 7:14 am
by uderoche (deleted)
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Thanks to dlraben for the great video showing correct scalpel technique and it's use.


YouTube www.youtube.com/ursinderoche
Facebook www.facebook.com/ursinderoche

Last edited Sun Jul 28, 2013 7:15 am | Scroll up

#40

RE: Picking Improvement

in PB Guitarstudio FORUMS Sun Jul 28, 2013 11:21 am
by John567 • 156 Posts

Hey deltadiscos,

Yeah, you found this too, eh? Its funny how he says you might be a bit sloppy when you try to bump it up (the metronome) at first but then you work on cleaning it up. It like exercising till failure, rest a bit, and do it again... etc... almost sounds like he's using a weightlifter metaphor, no? Interesting stuff....

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#41

RE: Picking Improvement

in PB Guitarstudio FORUMS Sun Jul 28, 2013 11:37 am
by deltadiscos • 310 Posts

A bit of Scalpel shouldn't really as dropped a caravan on my thumb a couple of days ago hurts like hell



few more quick videos
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oDvsnsw7Lrc

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2owlC_3KDMI

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jAV4r7O5rxc


You think you practice enough.......YOU DON'T!............PRACTICE MORE! Darryn U.K

Last edited Sun Jul 28, 2013 12:01 pm | Scroll up

#42

RE: Picking Improvement

in PB Guitarstudio FORUMS Sun Jul 28, 2013 2:18 pm
by Cliff • 344 Posts

Damon, Darryn - guys - wow! You both sound awesome. I'm so impressed.

Damon - what did you mean about 2-3 years intermediate? Is that how long you've been playing?

Scott - I want to clear up some confusion. I wasn't trying to suggest that playing at or above 160bpm wasn't a good idea - far from it. What I meant - and I think Damon has already provided counter-examples, so I don't necessarily think this is true anymore - what I meant was that I wasn't sure it was valuable to pursue picking to the point where it was much faster than the left had can keep up with. (And I for one definitely take you seriously on this forum - it's clear you're a great musician already.)


Last edited Sun Jul 28, 2013 2:20 pm | Scroll up

#43

RE: Picking Improvement

in PB Guitarstudio FORUMS Sun Jul 28, 2013 2:46 pm
by dlraben • 278 Posts

Hey Cliff, by 2-3 year intermediate I was mentally weighting together what I perceive my ability to be in a few areas: technique, creativity, theory, fretboard knowledge, improvisation, reading skills, composing skills, etc., etc. Of these technique might appear to be much further along than a 2-3 year player, while my knowledge of chords (since I have a thread on that) might be an area where I'm a total novice. I've had a guitar in my hands for maybe 20 years, but of that time I only count the last 5 or so as when I really started caring about it. The trouble is, unless one is exposed to other players (good and bad), or a knowledgable teacher, they really aren't able to properly understand what they do and don't know. That's one reason why I love this web-site.

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#44

RE: Picking Improvement

in PB Guitarstudio FORUMS Sun Jul 28, 2013 3:21 pm
by JoelMedina • 72 Posts

Hey guys! Just want to give a heads up that I've been lurking this thread since it started. You guys mind if I take part in the discussion and video posting here too?

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#45

RE: Picking Improvement

in PB Guitarstudio FORUMS Sun Jul 28, 2013 3:32 pm
by Tom (deleted)
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With a fretting hand that can do 10 notes per second and a picking hand that can do 18 notes per second, I know it to me would make a difference if I let the picking hand dictacte the fretting hand instead of vice versa. It's in my case a very mental thing where I need to focus on the picking hand responding to the fretting hand's action, or I'm chasing the picking hand with my notes and it gets sloppy. I chase the metronome with my fretting hand and try hit the pick with a desirable sound, so to say, and in separate excersises I'll play 1-note 3's, 4's, 5's, etc at various speeds with the fretting hand doing very little. At least that's how I practice, I'll let you know a year or two how it worked out for me, LOL.

Just a thought I had, maybe where you start out also makes a difference whether you're left-handed or right-handed? I'm right-handed and it's my picking hand. Wonder what it's like for lefties.

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#46

RE: Picking Improvement

in PB Guitarstudio FORUMS Sun Jul 28, 2013 3:33 pm
by Tom (deleted)
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Of course we wouldn't mind! :-)

Edit: in response to JoelMedina


Last edited Sun Jul 28, 2013 3:33 pm | Scroll up

#47

RE: Picking Improvement

in PB Guitarstudio FORUMS Sun Jul 28, 2013 3:40 pm
by Cliff • 344 Posts

Absolutely Joel - please do. It's great that this forum has such good discussions.

Damon - thanks for clarifying. So much to learn in so many different aspects. I'd be interested to start a discussion in another thread about how much time people devote to different aspects of the guitar. Not just technique, but practicing reportoire, learning news songs, jamming, improv etc.

Tom. I definitely feel my left hand lags behind the right. However, before joining this site, I felt like it was the other way around. That said, my ability to listen carefully and analyze my own playing has grown significantly, so I'm not sure how much I trust my earlier judgements.

As for the left hand leading the right, or vice versa, I'm not sure I believe either is the right way to think about it. (Of course, I suck worse than most here, so take this with a pinch of salt). My recent goal has been to be able to pick in time, and to be able to fret notes in time. I've found the legato practice has helped a good deal with the last of these. I suspect that when putting the two together, it's not a case of one hand leading the other, rather that both are in time, provided one is playing at a comfortable speed. I'm still pretty bad at this, so I'd be open to being contradicted :).


Last edited Sun Jul 28, 2013 3:41 pm | Scroll up

#48

RE: Picking Improvement

in PB Guitarstudio FORUMS Sun Jul 28, 2013 4:06 pm
by Tom (deleted)
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When I was the most confused a while back, I recoded myself on GarageBand on the Mac-Mini and looked at the soundwaves since they align nicely into each beat/measure. Not to my surprise, they told me my timing sucks. :-)

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#49

RE: Picking Improvement

in PB Guitarstudio FORUMS Sun Jul 28, 2013 4:22 pm
by Cliff • 344 Posts

:) I've done the exact same thing. And found the exact same thing.

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#50

RE: Picking Improvement

in PB Guitarstudio FORUMS Sun Jul 28, 2013 4:44 pm
by deltadiscos • 310 Posts

Good Post Damon i'm in exactly the same boat 20 years of faffing around self taught, then startithinking this is the instrument i've allways loved time to do something about it. you see these kids after 3 years dedicated practice and think shit look where i could be never to late though.


You think you practice enough.......YOU DON'T!............PRACTICE MORE! Darryn U.K
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