No worries, mate :-)

Quote: NicholasJacquet wrote in post #21

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Damn I wanna see some these scalpal techniques that people got going...I would have thought it impossible to scalpal relaxed 16ths at 160 bpm without it just beeing something like

e|-5-5-5-5--7-7-7-7--8-8-8-8-7-7-7-7-----------

Come to think of it, I am not sure I can beleive without first seeing.

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So, here is a demonstration that hopefully clarifies what I am trying to say;

I made a video showing a few easy things;1234 going up each string. First segment, I play 16th notes at 160 using my 'old/wrong' technique, THEN in the next segment I play 16ths using scalpel picking, a new and alien technique to me, but I've got it at 132bpm or so and pretty synched - Not too far behind. The 3rd segment I play just tremolos at 152 BPM, and then crap out a bit at 160, which is my wall on every string using Scalpel picking. The next segment I try to just noodle using the metronome as a groove, and employing mostly scalpel picking.

Yes, I have a routine where I play all of my scales, chords, all fingerings in all 12 keys, arpeggios, etc. What I am interested in developing right now is picking technique; As such that is why I posted simplistic stuff; I will re-integrate more musical playing and practice once the technique becomes more readily available. Currently, I use scalpel for all of my sight-reading studies also.

So where I'm at is a 'wall' at 160bpm. Sometimes I break it, sometimes I don't; but it is consistently there for the last bit... Perhaps an incremental metronome where I can go up by ones is in order, or maybe I'm just impatient. lol I just wanna play, and I feel that it isn't too much to expect to be able to build upon my existing musical and technical experience. Maybe a good 6 months will yield the results I'm looking for!
I do notice that my picking hand's middle finger curls over to support my first finger ala John McLaughlin. Trying to break the habit, but it feels like I need the support; Any ideas?

Anyways, hopefully these videos are of use to others, enjoy!

About the 160 wall, I've got a friend I play with. He's played for 30 years and is reasonably fast. He set a special training camp for himself for a month to get faster, but says now he got no faster. He's open to new ideas so I gave him a different alternate picking run to practice and said to stay below whatever his wall is at, then, instead of trying at the wall, set the metronome +20 above and just play 5-15 minutes trying to keep up with and don't care that it's off-beat or difficult, just don't quit. I'm no guitar teacher but from my drunken recollection, he trem'd at 4 per click at 220 and alternate picked 4 notes very sloppy at 175. His right hand was getting ahead of the left. He'llprobably peactice upwards 150-160 and then setitto 190-200 just for the workout. I'll keep me updated and see that he does it. Anyway, might be worth trying.

Quote: Tom wrote in post #29

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About the 160 wall, I've got a friend I play with. He's played for 30 years and is reasonably fast. He set a special training camp for himself for a month to get faster, but says now he got no faster. He's open to new ideas so I gave him a different alternate picking run to practice and said to stay below whatever his wall is at, then, instead of trying at the wall, set the metronome +20 above and just play 5-15 minutes trying to keep up with and don't care that it's off-beat or difficult, just don't quit. I'm no guitar teacher but from my drunken recollection, he trem'd at 4 per click at 220 and alternate picked 4 notes very sloppy at 175. His right hand was getting ahead of the left. He'llprobably peactice upwards 150-160 and then setitto 190-200 just for the workout. I'll keep me updated and see that he does it. Anyway, might be worth trying.

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Shawn lane around 2:43

Quote: Scottulus wrote in post #30

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Quote: Tom wrote in post #29

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About the 160 wall, I've got a friend I play with. He's played for 30 years and is reasonably fast. He set a special training camp for himself for a month to get faster, but says now he got no faster. He's open to new ideas so I gave him a different alternate picking run to practice and said to stay below whatever his wall is at, then, instead of trying at the wall, set the metronome +20 above and just play 5-15 minutes trying to keep up with and don't care that it's off-beat or difficult, just don't quit. I'm no guitar teacher but from my drunken recollection, he trem'd at 4 per click at 220 and alternate picked 4 notes very sloppy at 175. His right hand was getting ahead of the left. He'llprobably peactice upwards 150-160 and then setitto 190-200 just for the workout. I'll keep me updated and see that he does it. Anyway, might be worth trying.

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Yeah, that sounds like not a bad idea, thanks! I think Petrucci does something like that to 'trick' his picking hand into believing that a higher speed is actually a relief! Good idea.

I'm not looking to become the fastest guitarist on the planet, I could give a rat's ass. What I AM looking for is a way to be able to match myself using a more relaxed technique. Maybe clean stuff up a bit, and keep my poor shoulder and arm from falling off! lol

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By no means do I think scalpal a waste of time...lol...

And the only reason I cannot beleive without seeing that it is possible (with the exceptions being when someone is a virtuosso) to develope such an articulate, flexible. and blistering scalpal such as to play most types of 16th note phrases @ 160 BPM is because I have spent the last year+ working on picking both scalpal and sarod for 10+ hours a day...Nowhere during any of the afforementioned time frame have I gotten such a non tremello (while still being accurate) scalpal pure...Mind you, Mr Scott...I am NOT talking about scalpal with a bunch of trill and hybrid technique mixed in...I mean a pure scalpal 16th at 160 BPM with things like string skipping or even for that matter string crossing....If any of you could even show some directional scalpal playing at 16ths 160 BPM that would be enough for me to beleive.

For that matter If there is anyone out there who can take ANY trill permutation of their choice @ 16ths 160 BPM...And then proceide to eat up all four parts of each beat of the trill using ONLY scalpal pure that would be enough for me to beleive. And while I bet guys like Pebber, Frakh, and Ursin can do it already...that is the challange i issue to everyone else on this thread...It would make me very happy to see someone who has worked hard enough on scalpal to prove me wrong by posting such a feat on video (-:

Scott, in this one I show what I meant in case my PM to you wasn't quite clear.

Nick, here's the forums 20th+ attempt, and my 3rd or 4th attempt, to tell you that you're practicing incorrectly. None of us can really know for sure whether you're improving slowly, or whether you're flat out wasting your time. The three (most important?) things that you really need to work on are 1) improving your audio quality so your guitar and metronome can be heard clearly, 2) PLAYING IN TIME, and 3) reading, pondering, appreciating, and implementing any and all feedback you receive. It's only well after doing that when one can possibly understand WHY someone gave it to you and whether it was good or bad feedback for your personal development. You shouldn't have a clue whether it's good 15-20 minutes after someone gives it to you. You don't do seem to ever do this.

No one dislikes you personally. None of us even knows you at all. DON'T TAKE FEEDBACK PERSONALLY. We are all unknown to each other (for the most part). The only common thread we share is that we all want to excel at playing music using the guitar.

So forget all this other teenage behavior (who can play faster than who, who understand some non-practical archaic piece of music theory, etc., etc.) and sign on to the imaginary contract that all other posters seem to have signed. Help other posters on topics that you have ALREADY obtained proficiency in. Ask other posters for help on topics that you recognize you need to improve upon. And consider staying silent otherwise! I'll repeat what I've told you already, you're running the risk of forum posters just flat out ignoring you. (Heck, I'm running that risk myself in typing this to you). But consider that and figure out if that's something you would be happy with. I suspect it's not.

Anyway, I hope this helps someone. Now back to my morning coffee...

Edit: Nick, I see you've edited your last post to be a bit more tame. Kudos to you for doing that!!

Dang MR Laben!#! thats one rediculously fast scalpal...I am most impressed!!!!!!!!!!!! (edit:!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!)

I am going to shot a video to show where my scalpal is and hopefully with your knowledge of the technique you can tell me how to get it like you have.

Thanks to dlraben for the great video showing correct scalpel technique and it's use.

Hey deltadiscos,

Yeah, you found this too, eh? Its funny how he says you might be a bit sloppy when you try to bump it up (the metronome) at first but then you work on cleaning it up. It like exercising till failure, rest a bit, and do it again... etc... almost sounds like he's using a weightlifter metaphor, no? Interesting stuff....

A bit of Scalpel shouldn't really as dropped a caravan on my thumb a couple of days ago hurts like hell



few more quick videos
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oDvsnsw7Lrc

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2owlC_3KDMI

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jAV4r7O5rxc

Damon, Darryn - guys - wow! You both sound awesome. I'm so impressed.

Damon - what did you mean about 2-3 years intermediate? Is that how long you've been playing?

Scott - I want to clear up some confusion. I wasn't trying to suggest that playing at or above 160bpm wasn't a good idea - far from it. What I meant - and I think Damon has already provided counter-examples, so I don't necessarily think this is true anymore - what I meant was that I wasn't sure it was valuable to pursue picking to the point where it was much faster than the left had can keep up with. (And I for one definitely take you seriously on this forum - it's clear you're a great musician already.)

Hey Cliff, by 2-3 year intermediate I was mentally weighting together what I perceive my ability to be in a few areas: technique, creativity, theory, fretboard knowledge, improvisation, reading skills, composing skills, etc., etc. Of these technique might appear to be much further along than a 2-3 year player, while my knowledge of chords (since I have a thread on that) might be an area where I'm a total novice. I've had a guitar in my hands for maybe 20 years, but of that time I only count the last 5 or so as when I really started caring about it. The trouble is, unless one is exposed to other players (good and bad), or a knowledgable teacher, they really aren't able to properly understand what they do and don't know. That's one reason why I love this web-site.

Hey guys! Just want to give a heads up that I've been lurking this thread since it started. You guys mind if I take part in the discussion and video posting here too?

With a fretting hand that can do 10 notes per second and a picking hand that can do 18 notes per second, I know it to me would make a difference if I let the picking hand dictacte the fretting hand instead of vice versa. It's in my case a very mental thing where I need to focus on the picking hand responding to the fretting hand's action, or I'm chasing the picking hand with my notes and it gets sloppy. I chase the metronome with my fretting hand and try hit the pick with a desirable sound, so to say, and in separate excersises I'll play 1-note 3's, 4's, 5's, etc at various speeds with the fretting hand doing very little. At least that's how I practice, I'll let you know a year or two how it worked out for me, LOL.

Just a thought I had, maybe where you start out also makes a difference whether you're left-handed or right-handed? I'm right-handed and it's my picking hand. Wonder what it's like for lefties.

Of course we wouldn't mind! :-)

Edit: in response to JoelMedina

Absolutely Joel - please do. It's great that this forum has such good discussions.

Damon - thanks for clarifying. So much to learn in so many different aspects. I'd be interested to start a discussion in another thread about how much time people devote to different aspects of the guitar. Not just technique, but practicing reportoire, learning news songs, jamming, improv etc.

Tom. I definitely feel my left hand lags behind the right. However, before joining this site, I felt like it was the other way around. That said, my ability to listen carefully and analyze my own playing has grown significantly, so I'm not sure how much I trust my earlier judgements.

As for the left hand leading the right, or vice versa, I'm not sure I believe either is the right way to think about it. (Of course, I suck worse than most here, so take this with a pinch of salt). My recent goal has been to be able to pick in time, and to be able to fret notes in time. I've found the legato practice has helped a good deal with the last of these. I suspect that when putting the two together, it's not a case of one hand leading the other, rather that both are in time, provided one is playing at a comfortable speed. I'm still pretty bad at this, so I'd be open to being contradicted :).

When I was the most confused a while back, I recoded myself on GarageBand on the Mac-Mini and looked at the soundwaves since they align nicely into each beat/measure. Not to my surprise, they told me my timing sucks. :-)

:) I've done the exact same thing. And found the exact same thing.

Good Post Damon i'm in exactly the same boat 20 years of faffing around self taught, then startithinking this is the instrument i've allways loved time to do something about it. you see these kids after 3 years dedicated practice and think shit look where i could be never to late though.