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#76

RE: Picking Improvement

in PB Guitarstudio FORUMS Sat Aug 03, 2013 9:43 am
by Scottulus • 222 Posts

-Tom, a great idea and a cool riff! I actually spent most of last night really working on 'separate strokes' a la Pebber's Module. lol Very helpful stuff! What I've learned so far is that It would seem that I have 2 main issues that need to be dealt with;

1)Relaxation. I have a very, very tight grip and I have to force myself, literally concentrate to loosen up. It's at this point that disgusting speed gains become apparent. The speed is already there, I just need to access it and relaxed grip is the key. Damon pointed out my picking hand 'posture' earlier on in the thread, and man has that helped...

2)Keeping the 'diagonal string attack' when crossing strings. I forget to do this, and end up almost flat picking, which would be fine if flatpicking was what I wanted to develop hahaha

Anyways, this being a long weekend means that I plan to practice for 12 or so hours all three days. My itinerary?

1-2-3-4 fast and comfortable everywhere, my goal is 200 BPM, I'll be happy with anything above 144 (Which is where I'm at)

Bach Orchestral Suite excerpt in D Major (Remember Challenge The Masters?) played via scalpel. This is so I can integrate scalpel in my 'real world' playing. I'll keep y'all posted, we'll see if I can make some headway!
Just kind of 'relearned' it this morning, and boy does it feel weird!

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#77

RE: Picking Improvement

in PB Guitarstudio FORUMS Sat Aug 03, 2013 12:21 pm
by dlraben • 278 Posts

Scott, please share a video of that for us would you? At least once you're comfortable with your performance of it.

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#78

RE: Picking Improvement

in PB Guitarstudio FORUMS Sat Aug 03, 2013 12:58 pm
by Scottulus • 222 Posts

Definitely, I will share as I need the feedback so I can continue to improve, or at least ensure I'm not too out to lunch!The 1-2-3-4 bit is something I just want 'scratched off the list' 'cause I hate 'em so much,

Basically what I'm doing is playing this;

E----------------------------------------------------------
B----------------------------------------------------------|
G----------------------------------------------------------|
D----------------------------------------------------------|
A----------------------------------------------------------|
E - -1-2-3-4---2-3-4-5---3-4-5-6---4-5-6-7----------|

Every fret, and then I reverse back up. Then on to the next string until I've played all 6 and then I increase the tempo. I start at a very slow tempo (92BPM) and cycle up to my maximum and repeat, each time I kind of push the max up a bit. For breaks, I play the orchestral Suite, which is fun, and quite a bit slower! hahahah
I also do this one,

E-----------------------------------------------------------------------------1--2--3--4--5--4--3--2----------------------
B--------------------------------------------------------------1--2--3--4---------------------------------5--4--3--2------
G-----------------------------------------------1--2--3--4------------------------------------------------------------------
D--------------------------------1--2--3--4---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
A-----------------1--2--3--4------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
E--1--2--3--4---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Basically, I'm trying to get my picking hand very acclimated to this method, and along the way as I speed up and slow down, I discover new challenges. I figure spending 3 days on this ought to get me 'sort' of used to it...

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#79

RE: Picking Improvement

in PB Guitarstudio FORUMS Sat Aug 03, 2013 2:23 pm
by Scottulus • 222 Posts

hahaha So far all day practice and I'm up to a sloppy 152BPM. 144 is much better though! lol I'll take whatever I can get!

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#80

RE: Picking Improvement

in PB Guitarstudio FORUMS Sat Aug 03, 2013 2:38 pm
by Tom (deleted)
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Yeah, that keep hand flat did lots for me, too. Essentially discovered the pick isn't pointing straight up and down and causin unclean notes on the upstroke. I don't do much straight scalpel. It's more a lunch the downstroke with the thumb and let the wrist follow if it feels natural, and launch upstroke with index-finger. I'm ever so slightly adjusting the direction of the pick to where it sounds cleans, and offer resistance that doesnt' feel like I'm playing AGAINST the guitar instead of with it.

What I do at the moment is flatpicking-direction but with angled pick. Looks more old-school altpick, but what you can't see is thumb and index directs the down and upstrokes and wrist happens to follow. I hope to use all one day.

200 is a far cry from the 100'I was at today. Took me hours to find a sound that seemed clean, after adjusting all the above. I laid in bed playing, pushing down so my arm can be straight down along my side. For whatever reason, that makes it superrelaxed. Handpositioning is a mystery. I see some players where the hand droops down flat over the strings. Maybe there's something to it. I should try playing standing up sometime!

Keep rocking!

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#81

RE: Picking Improvement

in PB Guitarstudio FORUMS Sun Aug 04, 2013 11:10 am
by Scottulus • 222 Posts




Dammit, I'm holding the pick wrong still. Tons of tension, and hitting a wall. Fingers folding all over themselves... hahahah Today I correct this and see where I get...

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#82

RE: Picking Improvement

in PB Guitarstudio FORUMS Sun Aug 04, 2013 12:10 pm
by Cliff • 344 Posts

Hey Scott,

I'm far from an expert, but I had a very tense grip too before joining this site. I'm not entirely sure what helped to loosen it, but I'd maybe suggest trying the following:

Do the pyramid picking exercise, but at a really comfortable speed, so even the 32nd notes are well within your range without trying hard. Concentrate on making as small motions as possible with the pick even at the slowest speeds, and concentrate on a relaxed grip. As soon as you feel the tension coming back, try slowing down a little until it's relaxed again.

Sorry if this is stating the obvious, but I suspect it's difficult to work on increasing speed and decreasing tension at the same time.

FWIW, I've been working on the pyramid exercise at 50bpm, changing strings on every beat (this is a particular weakness of mine). On Ursin's advice from a few months back, I've been working both wrist picking and scalpel. I'm also trying, as a separate exercise, to incorporate the two. The motions of either one is very small, and when you combine them, the motions of each individual part can be smaller still to move the pick the required amount across the string. It's early days, but the hybrid approach seems to me to be more comfortable at speed than either technique alone. I think with patience and care I'll be able to achieve quite a speed like this.


Last edited Sun Aug 04, 2013 12:11 pm | Scroll up

#83

RE: Picking Improvement

in PB Guitarstudio FORUMS Sun Aug 04, 2013 12:37 pm
by Tom (deleted)
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Before picking up the guitar or anything related, close your fists and squeeze the heck out of them for 10-15 seconds then spread and stretch your fingers as far out as you can for 10-15, repeat for a few minutes. The harder you can squeeze and stretch, it'll change perspectives on what's relaxation and tension, but also release some tension. Maybe you do similar already. I'd do stuff like that for other sports. I probably should take some of my own advice to the guitar!

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#84

RE: Picking Improvement

in PB Guitarstudio FORUMS Sun Aug 04, 2013 7:21 pm
by Scottulus • 222 Posts

Excellent advice, dudes.

My own worst enemy? Lack of patience. It's funny, I was getting frustrated with my two days of very intense practice, and how I've only jumped from 144 to 160 doing 1-2-3-4 on a single string. (160 is brutal sounding... lol) I was really hoping for a more extreme tempo improvement, but what I sort of failed to notice is that I have really improved in a lot of ways; 144 is tight and 'thick' sounding, I get the tone I want. I can now play a lot of my existing vocabulary 'naturally' using Scalpel, although not quite as quick. The Bach orchestral suite is coming along nicely, but it has some strange jumps in it making it hard to execute super fast. Still, I like how it sounds the way I play it with scalpel, and if I can just learn to relax I should be okay. My original goal of 200 from 144 in two days may have been unrealistic, but the attempt has been worth it, and I have seen speed and control gains without a doubt. I still have one more day, so we shall see what it brings me! In the meantime, any ideas, suggestions or advice is welcome!

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#85

RE: Picking Improvement

in PB Guitarstudio FORUMS Mon Aug 05, 2013 5:54 am
by uderoche (deleted)
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Scott, I was a lot like you when I first came to Pebber in that, I had built up a modicum of technique but it revolved around my digits flapping about and my picking being very stiff. And of course, the classical discipline teaches an economy of motion so, basically, I was fucked.

I can tell you from my personal experience, what will help you fix your picking is to pick each individual string for 10 minutes (this would be 1hr total...of course) every day. Scalpel, wrist, some hybrid of the two, whatever you want to do only NO stiff arm picking. 10 minutes on each open string. Every day. This will work I promise you. It takes time however.

Now, most people, even the majority of this forum will not do this and, to the sane mind, such an idea of picking each open string for 1 hour (or more) seems like something Heath Ledger's Joker character would do while sitting in the insane asylum.

But it will work.

I generally go as fast as I can and gradually slow down as my hand begins to tire. Then I rest it. I may rest in between as well. Then I do the same thing with legato for at least 1hr plus.

Every day. You will see huge results.


YouTube www.youtube.com/ursinderoche
Facebook www.facebook.com/ursinderoche
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#86

RE: Picking Improvement

in PB Guitarstudio FORUMS Mon Aug 05, 2013 9:17 am
by Scottulus • 222 Posts

Quote: uderoche wrote in post #85
Scott, I was a lot like you when I first came to Pebber in that, I had built up a modicum of technique but it revolved around my digits flapping about and my picking being very stiff. And of course, the classical discipline teaches an economy of motion so, basically, I was fucked.

I can tell you from my personal experience, what will help you fix your picking is to pick each individual string for 10 minutes (this would be 1hr total...of course) every day. Scalpel, wrist, some hybrid of the two, whatever you want to do only NO stiff arm picking. 10 minutes on each open string. Every day. This will work I promise you. It takes time however.

Now, most people, even the majority of this forum will not do this and, to the sane mind, such an idea of picking each open string for 1 hour (or more) seems like something Heath Ledger's Joker character would do while sitting in the insane asylum.

But it will work.

I generally go as fast as I can and gradually slow down as my hand begins to tire. Then I rest it. I may rest in between as well. Then I do the same thing with legato for at least 1hr plus.

Every day. You will see huge results.



Well, I did it today, and man is my picking thumb/finger tired! Lol half my problem may very well be a lack of endurance picking this way. I have been doing a lot of practice, but no real 'endurance ' work in this respect. Actually, I have only been working on this for a few weeks, so my expectations are probably high, and my patience kind of low haha Thanks for the great suggestion!

Okay, back to practice!

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#87

RE: Picking Improvement

in PB Guitarstudio FORUMS Sat Aug 10, 2013 8:46 am
by Tom (deleted)
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How's it going, Scott? A good friend is a doctor and I always remember him saying you need 48 hours of rest per week for muscles to recover, and 1 week rest every 3 months, so I try to apply that to guitar-playing as well ... but it's hard to stay away! I keep poking new holes in my ego by lowering the BPM on the metronome with everything I play instead.

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#88

RE: Picking Improvement

in PB Guitarstudio FORUMS Sat Aug 10, 2013 10:58 am
by deltadiscos • 310 Posts

When your right hand becomes unusable just the left and when you tire the left use just the right
my thumb still has not recovered from caravan incident so doing a lot of left hand stuff.


You think you practice enough.......YOU DON'T!............PRACTICE MORE! Darryn U.K
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#89

RE: Picking Improvement

in PB Guitarstudio FORUMS Sat Aug 10, 2013 6:12 pm
by diegopaudyal • 91 Posts

Quote: dlraben wrote in post #69

Edit: Just showed your video to my wife to make sure I wasn't bs'ing. She says your wrist has to change, and also said it looks like your really shrugging your picking hand shoulder. She also said that while it's hard to see, you look like you're really having to look down with your neck. She says in the long run that can also lead to neck, shoulder & back problems. She says it would be better to have a completely straight neck and to try to see what you're doing with a mirror, web-cam, or by raising the neck so you're looking more sideways than down. Anyway, sorry for the rant here....


I started practicing in front of a mirror and it helped me in finding out some problems involved in both picking and fretting hands. I think I now see what you meant when you said something about my fretting hand angle. That was a very good advice. Thank You.

I am working on ladder exercises using scales. I will post a video in a few days.

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#90

RE: Picking Improvement

in PB Guitarstudio FORUMS Sat Aug 10, 2013 7:16 pm
by Scottulus • 222 Posts

Quote: Tom wrote in post #87
How's it going, Scott? A good friend is a doctor and I always remember him saying you need 48 hours of rest per week for muscles to recover, and 1 week rest every 3 months, so I try to apply that to guitar-playing as well ... but it's hard to stay away! I keep poking new holes in my ego by lowering the BPM on the metronome with everything I play instead.


Tom; I'm doing good. Still hacking away at it. As I improve on one thing I find myself lacking in another, so I keep ending up at a 'starting over' position at the end of each week it seems. Literally, my thumb and finger tire out, lack of stamina and endurance kicks in quickly and the big muscles and 'old' approach take over. Type of pick to use, my grip, etc are constantly in question, so I'm not getting as much consistency as I'd like. Still, at the end of the day, I know I'm improving, and the tempos are increasing, my time is getting better and the scalpel technique is 'bleeding' into how I normally play. However, It is a constant test of willpower to not just say "FXXK it!" and go back to how I used to do it. Funny thing is, my 'arm' method of picking has improved drastically, and I haven't practiced it at all. And I have started doing some basic Sarod stuff, just so I can get a start on it.

48 hours of recovery? Yep I believe it. After last weekend, my thumb and first fingers were pretty sore so I took it a bit easier throughout the week. This weekend, I'm back at it. Anyways, some observations;

-I'm finding I need to either a)reinforce my pick hand first finger by putting the middle finger on top of it, or b)cup all of my fingers together 'in line' with each other and my middle finger is sort of 'underneath' the pick helping to kind of push it. It seems to me that it should probably JUST be pick and finger, but my hand gets really sore if I try to separate the other 3 fingers from first finger and pick grip. Any thoughts on this would be appreciated...

-Changing strings is a real chore when picking fast. It almost feels like since I'm practicing honing in on just a small, small picking space that the large space between my strings is a pretty big leap at times and makes for an uncomfortable twist to get there (Sometimes it ain't pretty!)

-What kind of pick to use? Man I am so confused... I had just gotten myself weaned off of the Jazz II's in favour of a more traditional pick, heavy Dunlops, preferably with a bevel If I can get it... Now while I wait for a Stylus pick with which to practice, I've been using a Dava (The pointed black and yellow one, flex-y in the middle?) Any ideas? Anyone tried a stylus? What is the consensus here? different pick for practice vs play? Heavy picks, pointed ones?

-I'll post tabs and a video of the Bach Orchestral suite I mentioned earlier. I made a video last week, but upon watching it I observed that I pretty much turned it into a picking "free for all" hahaha It's gotten a little tidier this week, although not much faster.

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#91

RE: Picking Improvement

in PB Guitarstudio FORUMS Mon Aug 12, 2013 10:13 am
by Tom (deleted)
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I use the black Jazz III picks. I like the distinct sound they produce. It's also the first kind of pick I got years and years ago. Anytime I try a "regular size" pick, it feels like I'm holding a frisbee between my fingers.

My picking arm wasn't getting tired these last few days, but it sure kept getting slower. I started to rest and after 24 hours, my fingers ached when I made a fist. Trying to give it a relentless 48 hours or rest now, so just playing legato with the other hand instead.

Maybe you reinforce the picking hand finger because of where you hold the pick? I don't have much meat on the side of my nails, so it's an uncomfortable place to hold the pick, but when I do, it's a very good grip for playing. A lot more precise for me, and seems "stronger". When holding the other way, further down the finger, I can tend to seek support from the other fingers. I think part of it is also when I do it that way, I dig in much more than just the tip of the pick due to lack of precision.

Like uderoche said, we'll build up endurance/strength when playing with different grips. That's why I do it, and from there, I'll when "performing" go with the one that feels like it makes the most sense and works best for me. It'll take time, I guess, so I chug along. Just one of those "boring" things that need to be done, like with isolating the wrist-motion to keep the forearm from windmilling. Frustrating as hell when starting out with it.

I'll hit it out of different angles also. Like when watching TV or tiring of holding the guitar, I put it next to me on the sofa, place the hand where it's supposed to be on the guitar, and pick. Completely different angle, but in my case, I currently pick better from that angle, so I try to look at it and figure out why. Plus if it's not hurting, I don't think it hurts to hit it out of those odd angles either. It's an interesting angle because it's easy to see what the fingers are doing and how they're moving and if it "looks alright" -- I can't see it "from the top" like that when I sit with the guitar to my torso.

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#92

RE: Picking Improvement

in PB Guitarstudio FORUMS Mon Aug 12, 2013 6:21 pm
by diegopaudyal • 91 Posts

Before I started taking guitar lessons I wasn't paying attention about what pick to use. I always thought that a guitarist should be able to play with any kind of pick(a beginner thinking).

I changed my picking technique, pick holding technique and the pick itself after I started taking guitar lessons. I have been using Clayton Acetal Rounded 1.00 mm triangular pick for almost one year and it feels the most comfortable for me. I used to use Jazz III and also Jazz III Xl series but i always had to adjust the pick while playing and it was very slippery. No more adjustments while playing with Clayton and not slippery at all.

Okay , here I have a video of me playing D# Major Scale on the first position. I have been practicing ladder exercises with scales and thats what i'm doing in the video. I am first playing the scale, and I'm figuring out the first and second notes on each string from the scale pattern and I am making a ladder out of those first two notes of the scale. Usually I do 1st and 2nd note, 2nd and 3rd note and first and last note ladder exercises on all the 16 positons.

I have made adjustments on my strap and I think my left hand angle too. dlraben, I didn't make a video for 1st and 4th finger ladder stretches yet. I'm still working on my left hand angle and keeping the fingers curved like you suggested.

150 bps, 2 notes per beat and 1 note per string.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GhqxUm1JRE4

Thanx to dlraben and uderoche.

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#93

RE: Picking Improvement

in PB Guitarstudio FORUMS Mon Aug 12, 2013 8:32 pm
by uderoche (deleted)
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This is solid work and looking much better than before. Now, take the neck and pull it closer to your head. Make sure your fretting hand wrist and forearm is straight...or, as straight as possible. Your wrist is still bent too much. Also, keep your picking hand fingers away from the strings. The fingers on your picking hand are drifting around and this will slow you down in the long run.

Overall, solid. It's getting there. It's looking much better but still not 100% there...but almost.

Keep doing this every day.


YouTube www.youtube.com/ursinderoche
Facebook www.facebook.com/ursinderoche
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#94

RE: Picking Improvement

in PB Guitarstudio FORUMS Tue Aug 13, 2013 8:30 am
by uderoche (deleted)
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#95

RE: Picking Improvement

in PB Guitarstudio FORUMS Tue Aug 13, 2013 10:15 pm
by Scottulus • 222 Posts



Okay, so I've recorded several versions of this Bach Orchestral Suite Excerpt (In good 'ole D major) This one is probably the best in that I'm using scalpel picking for the most part, lol I seem to sort of tense up like a noob when I hit the record button! hahaha My practice tempos for this piece start at about 80 BPM and max out at about 108 BPM. Really, the main barrier is that I'm not used to being so relaxed when I play, and of course I'm not used to the space between the strings when I cross them, not to mention that I really, really need more practice. The amp I play through is a Marshal JCM 2000 DSL 401 Combo, not the most popular of their amps. My gig amp is a Marshall JVM 410H head, and a Malmsteen strat, lotsa fun! My preference tonally is a squeaky kind of grumbling overdrive. When myplaying is on the ball, it sounds amazing (Well I like it a lot hahaha). Any mistakes really come through though! In this short excerpt, the odd open string comes out (Still learning to mute) as well as the odd pick scrape/stutter. Whups... Still, I need to enjoy listening to what I practice or I will go crazy, and Bach/Paganini type stuff is always full of cool little things.

And other issues that I'm working on are keeping the picking direction consistent, I really have to force myself to consistently keep that up, or I revert to old directional habits. I am feeling a lot more comfortable with scalpel, and playing guitar is starting to become somewhat less of a chore hahaha This piece, as it becomes easier to execute with scalpel, I find myself slowing it down more, and starting at a lower tempo and practicing it all the way up to a higher one and then back down. I believe that I'll probably be spending some time with it at 'warp slowness' very shortly, as it is revealing, especially when I play back some video of playing it.

My current 'practice pick' is a Dava Yellow tipped pointy guy... My 'playing picks' Are the Metal tipped Davas or the Red plastic tipped davas. lol Non-pointy. I will soon have some stylus picks in, so I'm looking forward to seeing how they help me out, I have a feeling that they will really help.

I'll repost my progress on this in a few weeks, lol so in the meantime, enjoy (try not to throw up! hahaha) Hopefully everything will improve, I don't see why not, I feel it's come a long ways, especially since this technique of playing has made me a beginner again... lol Good fun! I'm really looking forward to getting back to recording and composing stuff again...


Oh, and I included the transcription as an attachment, here's hoping it works!


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Bach Orchestral Suite.pdf Bach Orchestral Suite.pdf

Last edited Tue Aug 13, 2013 10:21 pm | Scroll up

#96

RE: Picking Improvement

in PB Guitarstudio FORUMS Wed Aug 14, 2013 3:21 am
by NicholasJacquet (deleted)
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Why in the transcription pdf are the #'s enharmonically mispelled as b's? Though there are times where it certainly is beneficial to apply such enharmonic re-interpretations, the V Chords in this suite do not seem to be one.


Last edited Wed Aug 14, 2013 3:28 am | Scroll up

#97

RE: Picking Improvement

in PB Guitarstudio FORUMS Wed Aug 14, 2013 4:27 am
by uderoche (deleted)
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Good stuff Scott. Nice work. The scalpel picking is coming along. MUCH more loose! Not as rigid as before. I would say work on keeping your pick hand fingers in your hand. Also, the fret hand fingers are coming off the board too much. You can get them to stay down by practicing ladder exercises, spider exercises, and trills. I would say the ladder exercises are most beneficial with regards to getting the fret hand fingers to stick close to the fingerboard. Do them each day for around 30min-1hr really focusing on the 4th finger. The fret hand fingers should be at a severe curvature. The pick hand fingers need to be in the palm of the hand or, at the very least, away from the strings and body of the guitar. Having the pick hand fingers fanned out will slow you down.

I was talking with Warren DeMartini of RATT one time and I noticed he had started to keep his fingers in the palm of his hand after years of fanning them out. I asked him why the switch and he said, with the fingers fanned out it was "like driving your car in 1st gear all the time."

It takes some time to re-program yourself.


YouTube www.youtube.com/ursinderoche
Facebook www.facebook.com/ursinderoche

Last edited Wed Aug 14, 2013 4:48 am | Scroll up

#98

RE: Picking Improvement

in PB Guitarstudio FORUMS Wed Aug 14, 2013 8:12 am
by dlraben • 278 Posts

Scott, props to you for sharing your tabs. It's always nice to get fresh practice material with zero brain power required to compose/transcribe it. Especially for those of us with limited time to devote to practice. Keep 'em coming...

Zitat
Why in the transcription pdf are the #'s enharmonically mispelled as b's? Though there are times where it certainly is beneficial to apply such enharmonic re-interpretations, the V Chords in this suite do not seem to be one.



Assuming this is guitar pro, it's just a nuance of the program. If he wanted to do so, he could have added the D major key signature and everything would appear as you might expect. I'd bet that he was just being thoughtful for anyone that might want to play along and that omitting the key signature wasn't really a conscious decision.

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#99

RE: Picking Improvement

in PB Guitarstudio FORUMS Wed Aug 14, 2013 8:17 am
by dlraben • 278 Posts

Zitat



Skin tight leather = required...

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#100

RE: Picking Improvement

in PB Guitarstudio FORUMS Wed Aug 14, 2013 9:14 am
by Scottulus • 222 Posts

Quote: NicholasJacquet wrote in post #96
Why in the transcription pdf are the #'s enharmonically mispelled as b's? Though there are times where it certainly is beneficial to apply such enharmonic re-interpretations, the V Chords in this suite do not seem to be one.


Oh goodness, anything to be negative, eh? Haha
Sorry, this transcription is an automatic encoding of how I played it from my midi pickup; I forgot to put in the correct key signature, whups. I will fix when I get home. Fishman triple play rocks! It tracks perfectly, despite how I play.

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