#1

CAGED system gets trashed by Tom Hess

in PB Guitarstudio FORUMS Thu Dec 04, 2014 1:24 am
by Sirkostik • 12 Posts

Right, he made a list with top 10 reasons why CAGED system sucks and shouldn't be learned...

I would post link but I'm not allowed, I wanna hear your opinion on it.

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#2

RE: CAGED system gets trashed by Tom Hess

in PB Guitarstudio FORUMS Thu Dec 04, 2014 10:41 am
by deltadiscos • 310 Posts

put the link in and leave a gap somewhere.

I get emails from Tom Hess all the time. generally based around signing up. parting with cash.
you have to ask yourself if someone is giving you that much hard-sell, its normally bullshit.

But hey he has his own ways everyone to their own hey!!


You think you practice enough.......YOU DON'T!............PRACTICE MORE! Darryn U.K
One note can say a million words........It can also take a million notes to say one word
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#3

RE: CAGED system gets trashed by Tom Hess

in PB Guitarstudio FORUMS Thu Dec 04, 2014 11:29 am
by Sirkostik • 12 Posts

Aight here it is http_://tomhess.net/WhyTheCAGEDSystemHur...arPlaying._aspx i just put seprated link with "_"

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#4

RE: CAGED system gets trashed by Tom Hess

in PB Guitarstudio FORUMS Fri Dec 05, 2014 12:10 am
by Ray1981 • 279 Posts

I've read this article well its like PB says as well you should not stay at the CAGED system but it helps me a lot in understanding the fretboard and scales. So for me it doesnt hurt at all and has helped me making progress.

The only thing i could agree with his article is that this Hess wrote "Dont beleive everything on the internet"

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#5

RE: CAGED system gets trashed by Tom Hess

in PB Guitarstudio FORUMS Sun Dec 21, 2014 7:11 am
by Guitar Player • 83 Posts

Tom Hess is talking garbage.......

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#6

RE: CAGED system gets trashed by Tom Hess

in PB Guitarstudio FORUMS Sun Dec 21, 2014 2:18 pm
by pebberbrown • 878 Posts

The CAGED system is only an entry level system. Way too much importance is placed on it and there are literally hundreds and hundreds of youtube videos on it - my own included. The real deal is that you have to just learn the scales on the guitar neck in every possible location. This means breaking down a scale into a complete fingerboard diagram and then sectioning off areas which people call positions. The notes are on the neck, and each individual person can learn them using several methods. Positions are only snapshots of a certain distance on the fingerboard which includes the notes in a certain order. There are 5 basic positions which I reccommend that people start there because its simple and manageable to start with. All the great players/shredders/etc know MORE than the 5 positions. But I dont like to trash it because it delineates an easy to understand conceptual point of view that one can start with and be successful at playing some music right away using it. The systems that have more than 5 positions are also argued about and believe me I have been trolled for years on youtube with opinions from hundreds of people who think they know everything. The point is that the neck is the key to all position systems and there are many ways to traverse it. My stuff is all organized step by step, and its one solid way to get it done. It can take years to memorie the 14 position system and even longer for the 35 position system (scaletone form system) but guys like Holdsworth, Frank Gambale, Mclaughlin and many top level jazz fusion and rock guitarists are at that level and they didnt get there in one year. Even Yngwie knows a lot of patterns/positions/etc in his own unique way and he doesnt really even care what they are all called because he just uses all of them as a tool, as a means to an end, in other words as just pathways on the neck to realize the music that he hears in his head. Same for all great guitarists, and the positions/forms/patterns all overlap from system to system and from one approach to another from one guitarist to another - the body of infrmation is all going to overlap because the source are all the notes on the neck which is a finite map and can be approached from many different angles and methods.

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#7

RE: CAGED system gets trashed by Tom Hess

in PB Guitarstudio FORUMS Sun Dec 21, 2014 7:27 pm
by Farelli • 187 Posts

I agree completely. I started learning the CAGED system a couple of years ago but haven't put a huge amount of effort into it. That said, between that and the pentatonic positions, I have literally felt caged-in when I'm trying to improvise because I don't feel comfortable moving up and down the neck.

I can move to another position, but that's exactly how it feels and sounds, and I hate it. I do it anyway for the practice, but I've known for a while that I really need to improve my horizontal movement around the neck, which is what led me back to dive into PB's videos on scales.

By the way, PB, I am simply in love with the idea of the scaletone form system. I knew that I would need to map out everything in order to achieve my goals, but I could never have done it so concisely in a short period of time. Thank you.

I will be moving through all the systems just as you've recommended in your videos because I agree with your logic.

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#8

RE: CAGED system gets trashed by Tom Hess

in PB Guitarstudio FORUMS Thu Jan 08, 2015 12:01 pm
by Last_bloomer • 5 Posts

I personally have found the CAGED system to be very helpful from attempting to advance from the very generic chord plus single note lead line styles(very often covered by two guitarists) to a more elegant hybrid style involving both chords and voice leading lines. That's been necessary for me as I've got a hard time finding guys to play with so I need to cover all the bases myself. . .and it can be a huge help if all one's played before was powerchord rhythm or shready lead. It opens a lot of doors. . .it also is very helpful in getting away from cowboy chord voicings to more interesting composition-- that doesn't hurt either.

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#9

RE: CAGED system gets trashed by Tom Hess

in PB Guitarstudio FORUMS Wed Feb 11, 2015 3:29 pm
by uderoche (deleted)
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The 5 position system can take you very very far.


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#10

RE: CAGED system gets trashed by Tom Hess

in PB Guitarstudio FORUMS Wed Feb 11, 2015 8:59 pm
by Ivan • 45 Posts

I find the CAGED system pretty fun to learn, but I'm a newbie so pretty much everything is exciting right now. Ive noticed when I'm learning the scales in the 5 positions I'll hear snippets of lots of songs I recognise, and especially for pentatonics. It's nice to hear that CAGED can get you far :)


Music=Life
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#11

RE: CAGED system gets trashed by Tom Hess

in PB Guitarstudio FORUMS Thu Feb 12, 2015 3:20 am
by uderoche (deleted)
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As Pebber said, you can take it into the stratosphere...Pebber's Scaletone Form System is very advanced and almost infinite as far as normal "positions" go. But the 5 position system, to me, is the best starting point and I think Mr. Hess is really doing a disservice to himself and his students by not teaching/reinforcing it and then taking his students into the 14 position system. From an educational perspective, this is the way to go, learning the positions of scales and arpeggios. Even guys like Zakk Wylde at least know the 5 positions of pentatonic. I see it over and over in countless guitar magazines. It's only limiting if you limit yourself. The notes are the notes. It's simply a way to memorize the fretboard.


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#12

RE: CAGED system gets trashed by Tom Hess

in PB Guitarstudio FORUMS Fri Feb 13, 2015 12:30 am
by Ivan • 45 Posts

Underoche,
I discovered today that the 4th position arpeggio in Gmaj (10th fret) if played around with is the intro to Ein Kleiner Nachtmusik by Mozart... now I cant stop playing it! Its things like this that keep me up way too late at night wondering what other snippets of songs will appear just from rote learning finger patterns while watching youtube documentaries.


Music=Life
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#13

RE: CAGED system gets trashed by Tom Hess

in PB Guitarstudio FORUMS Fri Feb 13, 2015 3:11 pm
by Farelli • 187 Posts

I find the same things. As I mess around with the third, fourth, and fifth CAGED positions I discover problem areas that I then drill for a while, and I eventually make up little exercises and then transition them around making little songs.

It's the practicing this stuff thousands of times that creates unique ideas, definitely. Learning any system is a benefit, and shunning any system does us a disservice.

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#14

RE: CAGED system gets trashed by Tom Hess

in PB Guitarstudio FORUMS Sat Feb 14, 2015 1:29 pm
by uderoche (deleted)
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Exactly. There are many "systems" of doing things. From technical ways of picking to ways of studying the scales to harmonic analysis. Some of it is deep deep things that most of us would probably never use. But you should remain open minded to lots of ideas. Take what you like, use it, discard what you don't want to use.


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#15

RE: CAGED system gets trashed by Tom Hess

in PB Guitarstudio FORUMS Sat Feb 14, 2015 2:18 pm
by deltadiscos • 310 Posts

14 position system is amazing for moving around, and the scale-tone form system takes it too a new level. i have mapped it out and the string set and string-group possibilities are massive i am now working my way through them should only take the next 20 years lol. but hey what else am i gonna do.


You think you practice enough.......YOU DON'T!............PRACTICE MORE! Darryn U.K
One note can say a million words........It can also take a million notes to say one word
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#16

RE: CAGED system gets trashed by Tom Hess

in PB Guitarstudio FORUMS Sun Feb 15, 2015 8:12 am
by musicalhair • 9 Posts

This topic, and the thing about the "Caged" system that Tom Hess posted, really got me mad. I don't really care what he thinks about it. But in the thing he wrote trashing it, he says something along the lines that any student being taught it by a teacher is having their time wasted by the teacher. Anyone with any experience playing or teaching knows he's lying when he says that, and he is trying to undermine the relationship between a teacher and student. I can only think that he's trying to steal students from other teachers when he says that. He can not know why any single teacher is showing a student the "caged" system. He is taking advantage of new player's ignorance, by pretending any system you use to to get around the neck or visualize the neck or to map musical patterns onto the neck is ever meant to be any more than just a set of steps along the path of learning the fingerboard. I didn't learn the "caged" system, I learned the fingerboard via 7th chord inversions up and down the neck, arpeggios, and 3 note per string scales. But it's all just like sign posts on a road. You can put what ever sign posts on the road you want so long as it helps you learn the road. I just can't get past the way he insults other teachers for using that system, and I can't see any reason for it other than to undermine the trust students have in the teachers they're working with.

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#17

RE: CAGED system gets trashed by Tom Hess

in PB Guitarstudio FORUMS Sun Feb 15, 2015 10:44 am
by Farelli • 187 Posts

That, plus the added benefit (for him) of presenting himself as the guy who won't waste students' time. It's a value-selling technique.

It basically goes like this: "The other product is substandard and will be a waste of your money. All the other salespeople are thieves trying to take your money, and I'm the only one telling you the truth. Therefore I am the only one who really has your best interest in mind, so you should instead give your money to me. It is also because I am the only one really telling you the truth that you should pay me more than you do those other hacks who are just trying to steal your money."

If that technique is well-done, the customer sees the value in the price for the product or service. That's why prices are given at the very end of such pitches, and you always have to call to find out the actual price; they want to be able to overcome all your objections to the price and get you to purchase the product or service.

That entire method is flawed and is actually the one intended to fleece money from consumers, which is why I greatly prefer Pebber's approach: "You suck. I can help you suck much less, but only if you work your ass off. For my expertise, I require a modest payment for my services. Take it or leave it."

Pebber also achieves the value sell by demonstrating his expertise to great length through free products and services.

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#18

RE: CAGED system gets trashed by Tom Hess

in PB Guitarstudio FORUMS Mon Feb 16, 2015 10:15 am
by deltadiscos • 310 Posts

yea try finding another teacher who for free puts all pdf's up, that must of took years to compile,
Including his syllabus, which you could work through, along with the modules sheet for free, if you know where to look.
subscribing is the way though. so you receive regular organized videos and can get feedback. on your progress.

also never ever giving you the hard sell or upgrading spiel,
just genuine blood and guts hard bloody practice.
with years of knowledge.
I for one am a life student.
thanks Pebber


You think you practice enough.......YOU DON'T!............PRACTICE MORE! Darryn U.K
One note can say a million words........It can also take a million notes to say one word
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#19

RE: CAGED system gets trashed by Tom Hess

in PB Guitarstudio FORUMS Mon Feb 16, 2015 9:05 pm
by hudsontoronto • 79 Posts

I started on the CAGED system back in 2009 but I quickly moved on from it because if it's limitations in terms of learning and understanding the 7diatonic modes...there was some thing missing there.it got me playing some solos fast but after 1year I had to move up and just stay away from it.
I guess as you progress on your guitar playing you will find necessary to move away from the CAGED system.
the 14 position system made me understand modes and improved my playing 100%, today thanks to Pebber and his 14 position system I can go from ionian to dorian to mixolidian, any mode I feel like just by figuring out the 14 position system.
My improvisations are way better now with more flavor, I no long have to linger on the minor pentatonic for all my solos. ..
the problem with sparing guitar players they are looking for easy ways, magic solution. ..
So I would say, if you are asking "should I learn the CAGED sys ?" That means you are a begginer and don't know it yet, so go ahead and lean it. See it for yourself, try it, use it, see what you can do with it after if you wish move on from it but remember learning is never a bad thing...
just stop beeing lazy and go practice...
or not.


I'd like to have a beer-holder on my guitar like they have on boats.
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