#1

understanding scales/modes

in PB Guitarstudio FORUMS Sat Jul 17, 2010 6:01 am
by walleyedave • 37 Posts

ive always had trouble understanding what separates scales from modes,,,and how to find the "beggining notes" to use to apply scales to what im playing. on pebbers 14 point scale system,,,he uses the g major scale. in my guitar grimoire book, he uses the f major scale. i need to be able to understand how to easily be able to tell which scales/modes work with things. can anyone explain this in simple terms or point out where to go? when soloing etc,,,,i can usually come up with what im hearing in my head if i take the time to memorize what im doing,,,,which leaves no room for spontaneous soloing. also, some general soloing "tricks, riffs, runs" would be appreciated. i understand and use 3 and 4 note coils, but would like to have in my arsenal some general soloing 'cool' things that i can use at will...thanks in advanced guys,,,,what a great resource this is for those seeking knowledge.

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#2

RE: understanding scales/modes

in PB Guitarstudio FORUMS Sat Jul 17, 2010 8:34 am
by uderoche (deleted)
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Pebber is the master of all things modal! However, the answers to your questions are very long.

What separates scales from modes? To me scales are modes. Modes are scales. I don't normally think in terms of modes. Others may.

Pebber uses G major and the guitar grimoire guy uses F major. That doesn't really matter. As long as you know where to find the root note of a chord or scale, you can easily transpose this to any given key.

Understanding how and when to use a particular scale/mode cannot be easily answered here. The simple answer is it depends on the chord progression.

Learning riffs and tricks? That stuff is all over youtube. You should be able to find tons of that kind of thing.

If you are studying Pebber's 14 position system, my advice to you, if you really want to know and master this would be to continue practicing the 14 position system very slowly as Pebber outlines in his many youtube videos. Also, write these scales down many many many times. Do exactly as Pebber describes.

Also, begin to study the intervals of the modes. Write this down. Many Many Many times.

Hope this helps you.


-Ursin

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#3

RE: understanding scales/modes

in PB Guitarstudio FORUMS Sat Jul 17, 2010 1:21 pm
by walleyedave • 37 Posts

ursin,, i am starting with the caged thing first, or would you jump in to the full 14 postion system first??? its never been explained to me how to find the root note of a scale or a chord,,,although i know lots of them both..i guess you misunderstood what i meant by tricks,,,,im not looking for crap that wont help me understand whats going on,,more like tricks that would help to memorize the why of what to do( if that makes sense),,,,,where do i start? the caged lessons,,,the 14 postion?? the reason i ask this is because i have noticed that the 14th postion of the g maj also is the same pattern as b aeolian,,,which is minor,,right???? i find this so confusing,,,but i know if someone out there understands this and could explain even the simplest of these things to me on a small scale,,in a language that i could comprehend,,,it might be the catalyst that allows me to understand the broader spectrum,,,,,i am not trying to learn any of this to impress anyone,,,,get chicks,,make people think im cool, or any of that shit,,,i want to understand because i love playing my guitars, and im letting them down by not using them to their full potential!! ;) thanks for the help!!

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#4

RE: understanding scales/modes

in PB Guitarstudio FORUMS Sat Jul 17, 2010 2:38 pm
by be&say • 12 Posts

I'd say (and Pebber probably would too) start with the caged system, please understand there's a difference between a pattern/fingering and a scale:
-Patterns and fingering tipically cover every possible note in a certain key in a certain fretboard area
-Scales move from root to root (so they exist within the patterns)

It's very confusing trying to get a particular sound in your head when your "scale shape" goes up two octaves plus a third.

For modes you're gonna have to work on them just like you work on major, so consider each one a new scale so the scale shape becomes a new thing that fits within the diatonic patterns you already have and also and MOST important SIIIIIIIIIIIING, you'll NEVER remember a scale without having sung it for a while.


http://www.beandsay.com
besay@beandsay.com
beandsayguitar@gmail.com

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#5

RE: understanding scales/modes

in PB Guitarstudio FORUMS Sat Jul 17, 2010 10:47 pm
by robmurtha • 94 Posts

There is a question that will help you find the answers, that is do I understand theory? If you are still learning the notes of the diatonic scale, that is major scale and you are still working on learning which is the root, third, fifth etc then your theory skills should take the front seat for now. Finding the root of a key is equal to finding the first note or one of that major scale in G it is G, for the rest of the notes of the key you simply count from there GABCDEF#. Finding the root of a chord is very similar for example the root note of a C Major chord is C. Here is the interesting part, the C Major chord is the fourth chord in the key of G Major, G is still the root of the key of G and C is the root of the C Major chord, see how each chord has it's own root note, for bass players this is often the note that is played in support of the rest of the band. Now to relate this to modes - the modes are based off of names for each position within the key, in our example the mode that describes the C Major is Lydian - it is based off of the fourth position within the key, now with modes you can also see an entire scale, the root of the lydian in this case is C and the key is G, so the lydian scale is CDEF#GAB, you can also think of it as starting the G scale from the fourth note in that scale.

Check out this wiki page for more details, I presented the example in G but for most theory work the key of C is preferred since it is easier to learn on the piano (all white keys)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Properties_of_musical_modes

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#6

RE: understanding scales/modes

in PB Guitarstudio FORUMS Sun Jul 18, 2010 7:56 am
by uderoche (deleted)
avatar

Zitat von walleyedave
ursin,, i am starting with the caged thing first, or would you jump in to the full 14 postion system first??? its never been explained to me how to find the root note of a scale or a chord,,,although i know lots of them both..i guess you misunderstood what i meant by tricks,,,,im not looking for crap that wont help me understand whats going on,,more like tricks that would help to memorize the why of what to do( if that makes sense),,,,,where do i start? the caged lessons,,,the 14 postion?? the reason i ask this is because i have noticed that the 14th postion of the g maj also is the same pattern as b aeolian,,,which is minor,,right???? i find this so confusing,,,but i know if someone out there understands this and could explain even the simplest of these things to me on a small scale,,in a language that i could comprehend,,,it might be the catalyst that allows me to understand the broader spectrum,,,,,i am not trying to learn any of this to impress anyone,,,,get chicks,,make people think im cool, or any of that shit,,,i want to understand because i love playing my guitars, and im letting them down by not using them to their full potential!! ;) thanks for the help!!



Yes, start with the 5 position (CAGED) system first. This will take you very far. Go to youtube and watch Pebber's videos on the CAGED system. Get your guitar out and play along with Pebber. Do exactly what he says 100%. Writing things down, adding one note at a time, etc. Do this every day. Every day. Do not skip a day.

If you are completely unfamiliar with the 5 position system, I would say that you need to study this using Pebber's methods for about 1 to 2 years before moving forward. If you want to understand. If you just want to play some modes, you can look them up online and mess around with them. But I don't think you want to do that. I think you want to really understand this stuff. So, I say, watch the CAGED videos and do exactly what Pebber says to do. Practice every day for as long as you possibly can.


-Ursin

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#7

RE: understanding scales/modes

in PB Guitarstudio FORUMS Sun Jul 18, 2010 2:16 pm
by walleyedave • 37 Posts

thanks,,you are helping me understand!!

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#8

RE: understanding scales/modes

in PB Guitarstudio FORUMS Sun Jul 18, 2010 2:20 pm
by walleyedave • 37 Posts

be and say,,,rob,,and ursin. THANKS VERY MUCH for the input and for helping me out. You dont know me, and you owe me nothing, yet you have used your time to try and help me..I am grateful for this forum, for Pebber, and for people like you!

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#9

RE: understanding scales/modes

in PB Guitarstudio FORUMS Mon Jul 19, 2010 5:31 pm
by uderoche (deleted)
avatar

Zitat von walleyedave
be and say,,,rob,,and ursin. THANKS VERY MUCH for the input and for helping me out. You dont know me, and you owe me nothing, yet you have used your time to try and help me..I am grateful for this forum, for Pebber, and for people like you!



No problem walleyedave! We are here to help you and so is Pebber. Believe me, if we were giving you false information he would jump in and correct us very quickly and (often) very sternly!!!!!

You MUST have a knowledge of the 5 position system to begin understanding modes. So, continue your daily practice of the 5 position system as Pebber outlines. Do everything exactly as Pebber explains. And you must practice daily for many hours.

Also, most of the information on the internet concerning modes is terrible nonsense and I would avoid it.

Your original question was when to use certain scales/modes. As I said, modes are scales. And their use is dictated by the chords you are playing over.

As Rob said, a little theory comes in handy here.

The modes are scales that fit over certain chords. When you see a particular chord, you need to know what notes are in that chord. Then, you want to find the correct scale to play right? Well, you need a scale tonally centered around your chord that contains the notes of your chord.

Most of the "mode" stuff on the internet is so confusing that it confuses me too! Don't read that stuff.


-Ursin

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#10

RE: understanding scales/modes

in PB Guitarstudio FORUMS Mon Jul 19, 2010 8:08 pm
by walleyedave • 37 Posts

Ursin,,,,i have come to realize by watching the videos from Pebber, that most, if not all of the things i have used as learning tools are completely worthless. i wont be watching another you tube guitar video, unless it is from Pebber. i wish i would have discovered this years ago, im 35, and i abandoned my guitar in my 20's for reasons i wont go into here, but im not dead, and i still have lots of time left. Another question, i have built a habit of anchoring my pinkie on either the bridge pickup, or the body of my guitars. It seems so ingrained that i really dont know how to not do it..when i try to play with a floating wrist, i absolutely play like a 4 yr old. its like trying to flip my guitar over and play left handed. my question is this,,,some players who play fast play this way,,,some do not. should i worry about this, or is it one of those things that wont slow me down??? im not really anchoring in the exact spot,,but more floating around with my pinkie...just wanted yer input!! thanks a million!

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#11

RE: understanding scales/modes

in PB Guitarstudio FORUMS Tue Jul 20, 2010 8:50 am
by uderoche (deleted)
avatar

I would not ANCHOR any part of my hand to the guitar. You can LIGHTLY rest your palm on the strings near the bridge for purposes of muting but your hand must have a full range of motion so allow it to move. Never ANCHOR. Never touch the body of the guitar with your fingers.

Pebber has many videos on proper picking technique. It may take you a year or more to break your bad habits, but it will be worthwhile.

Many famous guitarists have bad habits.


-Ursin

Last edited Tue Jul 20, 2010 8:51 am | Scroll up

#12

RE: understanding scales/modes

in PB Guitarstudio FORUMS Tue Jul 20, 2010 1:52 pm
by walleyedave • 37 Posts

Ursin,,,so what yer saying is that i have to actually work at removing this bad habit? My old man used to say, "how do you eat an elephant"? "one bite at a time'. thanks for all yer help,,i'll get back at ya in 2 months or so and let ya know how its going! Hope the rest of yer summer is great. I've kicked habits that kill people, I'm pretty sure i can fix this pinkie anchoring business!! Take care!!

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#13

RE: understanding scales/modes

in PB Guitarstudio FORUMS Tue Jul 20, 2010 6:58 pm
by uderoche (deleted)
avatar

Yes, you definitely have to work at removing bad habits. I have bad habits myself that Pebber has helped me break. It takes time. I work on it daily. It won't happen overnight but, through time, you can do it.

It's tough business. You have to love it. It's like, a monk who does all things to praise his god.

We all have to be guitar monks. If you want it bad enough, it will happen.

I believe in Pebber more than any guitar teacher I've ever had. His methods truly do work if you put in the effort.

I love Pebber man. You should shoot him an email and tell him how much his lessons have helped you. I know he would love to hear that.

Peace


-Ursin

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#14

RE: understanding scales/modes

in PB Guitarstudio FORUMS Tue Jul 20, 2010 9:19 pm
by robmurtha • 94 Posts

35 - I'm 48 and so thankful that I bumped into Pebber, my playing has changed drastically since following his path, in my case it brings me back to where i started out and strayed a bit from over the years.

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#15

RE: understanding scales/modes

in PB Guitarstudio FORUMS Wed Jul 21, 2010 4:52 pm
by deadcrustpunk • 9 Posts

boy do i feel dumb reading about this... but as stated... practice makes perfect... one day i WILL UN-suck enough to understand what all of this means! until then... i must practice my picking!




are you REALLY justified in having NOTHING to say???

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#16

RE: understanding scales/modes

in PB Guitarstudio FORUMS Wed Aug 04, 2010 6:23 pm
by SwampRiverMan • 27 Posts

I agree with Ursin and Rob here about working on breaking bad habits. However anchoring a pinky on the body of the guitar while finger picking or to obtain a certain attack on the string is not ALWAYS a bad thing. I would certainly not recommend it while playing those fast runs you all are so fond of now days. :)

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#17

RE: understanding scales/modes

in PB Guitarstudio FORUMS Wed Aug 04, 2010 10:46 pm
by pebberbrown • 878 Posts

Everyone has their personal shit list of bad habits they know about and want to break. The reality of it all is that the music contains tones which are generated by musical instruments. How they are physically played is always a matter of technique. The way one person palys over another person is always going to be an item of debate. However, when trying to become proficient at playing, you have to look at following a basic principle - keep the movement down to whats only absolutely necessary otherwise there will be a lot of wasted energy and increased effort to accomplish the musical idea. This gets translated into "hand positions" and "angles" and "action" and many technical ideas - to which a lot of people argue back and forth about and have done for decades. To "anchor" or not to"anchor" is a personal way of balancing, which some liek to do, others do not. The end result should be clear sound, accuracy and proficiency regardless of placement.

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#18

RE: understanding scales/modes

in PB Guitarstudio FORUMS Fri Aug 06, 2010 3:48 am
by walleyedave • 37 Posts

Pebber, thank you for "clearing" this up for me. I sat last night while practicing the Gmaj 1st pos over and over, and really took an anylitical look at my "tecnique", or lack thereof. I noticed that SOMETIMES i am using my pinkie to anchor slightly, and sometimes I am not. Sometimes my whole hand is free floating , while during other times, it LIGHTLY is touching by the bridge, ie muting etc. To me, i think it is an unconsius thing. If I undestand you correctly, This "may or may not" be something that i should be completely worried about! I need to send you a video of my tecnique and have you look at it. I suck with computers on a level which cant be explained, is there a quick link on this forum for sending videos to it?? Anyones help on this would be great. Finding this forum and this website has helped me more in the last month , than you can imagine! Thanks you SO MUCH for taking the time to make the you tube videos, What an incredible resource they have become for me! The way you explain things, and slow down the process makes me comprehend the whole picture, which in turn makes me excited to go further!! THANKS A BILLION PEBBER!

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#19

RE: understanding scales/modes

in PB Guitarstudio FORUMS Sat Aug 07, 2010 9:29 pm
by pebberbrown • 878 Posts

To post a video here you have to have it hosted on You Tube or somewhere. You just click on the little black & white move clapboard icon and it should have a tooltip that says "Video einfugen." Click on that and a requester will apper asking you tp input the URL of the video.
That means you have to first go back to You Tube, play the video and in the URL title bar at the top, drag the mouse over the text untilits all blue and then ctrl-c to copy. Then Ctrl-v to paste into the requester. YOu can exit You Tube to do this and it will stay in memory until yhou Ctrl-V it.

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