Hi,

From the video's I gathered that Pebber does not feel natural using directional picking. Presumably having used alternate picking a long time it becomes difficult to make directional picking seem natural. My main question is if (having no ingrained system yet) it makes sense to study directional picking?

When doing 3 note scale patterns (playing notes 1,2,3 and than moving one step to play 2,3,4) I noticed that while using alternate picking I occasionally use directional picking. Reason I found out is because it messed up my flow/timing. To me it seems that directional picking is more efficient than alternate picking, but it feels more difficult to keep in good timing.

On the other hand my timing should not be dependent on having a regular up down motion, at least in my view. I know that some teachers use alternate picking to teach consistent timing. Using for example down strokes only for 1/4 notes and playing 1/8 notes using alternate picking. For me it helps to be more consistent in my timing this way, but you end up making a lot of empty movements when playing the 1/4 notes. And the problem gets worse if you start doing up/down timing based on 1/16 notes.

So if the timing is separate from the picking system, the logical choice would be to study the most efficient motion (directional picking). But if directional picking is much more difficult to master, than it may make more sense for me to study alternate picking instead.

Any experience/views are appreciated.

Regards,

Frank

sometimes i use directional (economy) picking. just depends on what i'm trying to play. but i use alternate as much as possible cuz i personally think it sounds better.

I think you should do EXACTLY what Pebber does. My reason for this is because It was INSANELY hard for me to reprogram myself to hold the pick the way Pebber explains, and it was even harder (for me personally) to use my thumb as a fulcrum in my picking, as PEbber does in his picking basics videos. After working on it though for the past 4 months, I am realizing how much easier and fluid my picking has become, which in turn, makes my playing ALOT cleaner and makes my timing more and more precise. My point? Don't 2nd guess someone who has years and years of guitar teaching. I agree with Ursin that sometimes you can catch yourself doing economy picking on a small scale, almost unintentionally, but in the big picture, alternate picking all the way.

To the guy above me: No offense but that is the most absurd thing I've ever heard. If Marty Friedman has taught us anything, any technique works (as long as it's not hurting you!). I believe YOU should use the technique that gets YOU the sound YOU want to hear. I spent years copying many techniques from many players; I even got REALLY proficient in a lot of them (Pebber Brown's technique being one of them).

I came to a point that I decided none of the plethora of techniques I learned were giving me the sound I wanted. I was looking for an incredibly articulate accurate and dynamic sound so I adjusted my technique into what I believe fit that. I'm a strict alternate "picker", I anchor my pinky, my motions to pick a string come from my wrist, my motions to move from string to string come from my arm, I am relaxed, I feel no pain, I am fast (fast enough), It works for me, and (most importantly) it's giving me the sound I want to hear.

How do even explain the fact that tons and tons of guitarists find amazing success and astonishing results with directional/economy picking? You can't just dismiss that! And to add another point, your technique should be working for your music not the other way around. It is truly amazing how many guitarists get so far up in technique they lose sight of their own music; Those guys will end up being damn good pickers but their music will suck major cojones.

My view: Make sure both your technique doesn't suck and , more importantly, your music doesn't suck. Don't be so one-sided on technique because, in the end, it's just a tool used to build music.

To the TC: I only use directional picking for 1 note per string runs (sweeps) I don't like using it otherwise but don't let that hold you back. But by all means, see what works for you.

I was simply stating what worked for me personally. I happen to belive that alternate picking is better in the long run. This guy was asking for an opinion, and I gave him one. I never claimed that What I do is the ONLY way. I believe that Pebbers style of picking is the best for me, and might be worth pursuing! I think that someone on Pebbers level has alot of experince that most of us dont. So for my money, thats where I want to go. But because you have a differing opinion doesn't make me "absurd". But I do majorly agree with finding your own style and sound, and that you shouldnt let your music and songs take a backseat in the pusuit of perfect teqnique. Guitar playing is supposed to be fun!

When I first began playing, directional picking intuitively was my first choice. It felt natural to me
until I went into an 'incorrect picking dilemma' mindset developed from watching instructional videos
putting alternate picking on a throne as a proper technique and me taking it for granted. It occupied
me for years to study alternate picking technique and so many frustrated times when certain lick I
desired to play was next to impossible to be executed in desired tempo, or needed a legato approach to
'cheat the laws of physics' through the tempo.

After a certain amount of time spent into alternate picking fanaticism, I went back into directional
picking, but without forgetting the beauty of alternate picking and all advantages of it.

The biggest problem to us all, considering directional picking really represents a consistent timing.

And this is where alternate picking wins big time...but just for a second, while you're not thinking
about other advantages directional picking offers, and in most cases, we quit developing directional
picking and stick with 'easier' method, using an advantage of a faster time consistency playing
development as an excuse... taking a 'machine gun' analogy of alternate picking strokes as mission
impossible for directional picking.

But, wait a second...could it be that using things that keeps us in time while playing via alternate
picking can be a benefit in directional picking too?

Not just it could be, but it is actually how it's done.

SETTING MARKERS... accenting the notes... setting a neural path for the brain:

Our brain is executive producer of everything we play, and yet, this jerk has a bad habit remembering
complex combination as a single things, a bunch of notes as one thing.
So we must set things up as chunks for the lazy bastard to recognize the big picture. As motion picture
of 25 frames per second is perceived by our eyes like one motion.

If someone is exclusively an alternate picker(steve morse), he can't tell nothing contrary but admit that
accenting the notes, via muscular movements or by using inner ear memory, really IS that key point of
keeping the whole thing in a perfect time even for alternate picking.

If you're familiar with playing of percussionists or drummers, you already know what keeps them in time...
accenting the notes. And do they have this unconventional double stroke ideas like we have in directional
picking? You bet they have...paradiddles, for example uses combination of single and double strokes for
a single hand/stick, and it really can become messed up, but what keeps them concentrated really is
accenting the strokes.

How we can translate this into directional picking?

Drummer's roll(one hit-one hand) = Alternate picking

Paraddidle(combination of single strokes alternating the hands,and
double strokes with the same hand) = Directional picking

And yet, as most directional picking gurus says, we're not doing double stroke,like drummers do with
single hand, but one, wider stroke, producing the two separated notes. Gliding across the strings.

The next problem to us is this bigger, wider stroke, needed to execute notes on the 'next' strings. And if
you consider playing using alternate picking, it is also a combination of smaller(on the same string) and
bigger(covering different strings...outside,inside picking, or even bigger when skipping the strings) so
you can blame this for inconsistent timing also, in the case of alternate picking.
So, in crossing strings in directional picking the case is that this motion of string crossing really
isn't that wider, but it's only a different approach, a different motion, different feel, especially if
you use whole arm to travel between the strings, like most do(George Bellas for example, for all crossings,
and some other guys when sweeping arpeggios).

But why not give it a try to produce this movement differently? Well, this can be done by several styles.

By splitting the strings into 3 groups of 2 strings and using the forearm rotation combined with wrist
adjustment covering the group of 2 strings without moving forearm in any direction than rotation, rather
than moving the whole arm... and using forearm adjustment(up or down) only to travel to the next group of
2 strings.

By splitting strings into 2 groups of 3 strings...same approach, with lower forearm up and down adjustment
and a little higher action on wrist adjustment...

Or even by covering all strings from the same placement of the palm...a picking all from one point of palm
joint placement, using the combination of forearm rotation with slightly angled wrist in direction of strings
desired to be picked...(Ney Mello does this a lot)

Or separating a groups of strings in groups of 4 and 2,5 and 1, 1, 2 and 3, or whatever combination
situation dictates...

The best approach, In my opinion, is to before any playing, put the hand in a most comfortable position for
covering 2 or 3 middle strings(D,G and B or A,D and G) and start from that, with idea in mind that technique
on 2 or 3 lower strings (E,A and D) looks very similar as technique on 2 or 3 higher strings(G,B and E). This
approach will set your only anchor-that forearm slightly below elbow anchor in a balance from where your
forearm can adjust to anything without replacement of anchor in favor to access something unreachable from
the starting point... and then using any combination of string groups covering mentioned above, to cover the
strings in a certain situation the best way possible.

SAROD PICKING VS. OUD PICKING:

I've already mentioned above what everybody here already know, using forearm rotation picking, that turning
of a key in a lock, or turning a doorknob motion picking, or adjusted Sarod style picking...or whatever one
would like to call it...but here, we will go a little deeper into something what one might call 'customized
Oud picking style'...?!

Ok, I think everybody here knows what Sarod instrument looks like, and what are we borrowing from it's
technique. Oud is a little bit different instrument, and yet, it's a stringed instrument, a Middle Eastern
Lute, according to some resources,one of the oldest stringed instruments in human history.
And to keep history class short here, if you're interested, Google Oud by yourself, and here we'll take just
what is essential regarding the technique of this instrument.

The picking rule regarding crossing strings for this instrument in most schools is quite interesting, in the
same direction!
And yet, it's very look alike 'Sarod picking' in forearm movement, only smaller when crossing the strings.
Man, this is the old time directional picking...the old time sweep picking, dude!

You can even call it the Sarod economy picking, whatever...

But what is needed to adjust from this old time sweeping is angle of the wrist, considering muting unplayed
strings on a guitar. Another key point is pick used to pluck this instrument, Risha, a feather alike plectrum,
which is while held as Oud players do, angled at specific degree, horizontally bird's view speaking, at the
angle so elusive to guitar players to consider or maybe to give it a try.
Among other angles so loudly hailed in guitar community regarding the pick grip(45 degree vertical angle in
both directions) , this is probably the most elusive one, 'cuz it is almost imperceptible, even if you use it
unconsciously , and looking at it from above, while playing, if you're not aware of this, you can't notice it
easily.

Simply put, looked from above, a left side of the pick is slightly pointed to the neck...?!
Let's call this 'Oud risha pick grip', or just 'risha grip'.

PICK GRIP:

You probably noticed I didn't mention 'scalpel' picking anywhere above. The reason for this is because I
believe for myself that this picking style has to be used with caution, because for me, the picking that
is coming from thumb/index finger movement only, is the slowest one, and I believe that the best use of this
is for adjusting the angle of the pick, to flow easier through the strings, lowering the resistance of the
string, and not for putting the basis on this for crossing from string to string without any other movement.
OK, maybe on up inside stroke on adjacent string sometimes, when we have to go back immediately (I saw John
Petrucci does this) but not so often. And there's this little paradox...even if we practice without using
movement of thumb and index finger, we still are using the motion of this muscles, microscopically speaking.
Especially because the best grip doesn't always use the same force of thumb/index finger muscles.
But how to get the notes desirably clean, if we are adjusting(changing) the pick angle differently so often,
'cuz this really can and will affect overall sound of all notes and turn the big picture of sound incongruent.

Imagine, one note sounds clean, even two or three...and every 4h or5th note gets muffled like it's bad note
from some different crappy instrument or like there's a bit of mud on a string every now and then... and what
to do in this type of situation?
I know, Pebber would say to stare at the bass player and give him 'the look', like it's his fault, he he, but
what if bass player isn't around...
OK, joking aside, but there's a solution for this. A pick grip that is loose, and still secure in hand, so
pick won't fall out from the hand,and still, you're not wasting energy by tensing your muscles for a stiff
grip. Ok, sometimes we need a stiff grip too, but not as much as a firm and yet loose grip.
I already mentioned angle from the'risha grip' above. But how to execute the perfect grip for that angle?
Put the left curve of the pick slightly above the first joint of the index finger, and press with the
thumb that pick 'sits' into a thumb's first joint. The pick is perfectly secure from falling out, and yet
degree of looseness is a subject of one's preferences. Also, avoid re-gripping. Even at the micro degree the
pick must be gripped in the same place all the time, unless you have to jump to some fingerpicking or
tapping including all fingers of picking hand and by doing so, replacing the pick into the palm or
putting/throwing it away.

BOOMERANG ELASTIQUE PIQUE:

The dose of looseness of a grip depends of what we need to do...the great looseness approach should be to hold
the pick in that way that in the moment of passing through the string doing down stroke the pick in this short
moment gets slightly angled between the fingers pointing at thumb direction and towards your face for example,
and then immediately goes back into default position, and in the moment of passing through the string on the up
stroke, the pick in this short moment gets slightly angled between the fingers pointing at index finger
direction and towards your feet for example. This will result with much cleaner sounding, and much less effort
for pick to travel through the string as the tension is lowered and string resistance is a helpful, more than
enemy to the technique. Keep in mind that this momentarily pick angles, this reversed angle movements in relation
on an opposite picking direction should be so tiny, almost invisible, imperceptible, the pick grip isn't loose
that much, and the pick isn't so shaky.
Also, for better control of the pick it's good to find the sweet spot of choking the pick down into the such
grip that your thumb and index finger doesn't get in the way of pick and produce unplanned sounds, and to make
sure that the upper part of the pick sees some light.

THE ECONOMY OF MOVEMENT(S):

What would you say if I told you that standard guitar doesn't have 6 strings only, but 18 strings, of which
6 are visible, and 12 are perceptible only by a hands of a true master!

What the heck I'm talking about here is using a rest strokes...another rule from Oud thechnique, or in Spanish
and classical guitar 'Apoyando' technique. The flatpick apoyando. Without much thinking about when to use it,
and when not, after a short time after starting to incorporate this it's really helpful. By using real rest
strokes, and imaginary rest strokes.

Let's consider the 'visible' 6 strings as strings from which we produce notes, and imaginary 12 strings as
strings that are very close to the main 6 strings, on each side of every string, a one string per side, very
very close...about 1.5 to 3 mm close. And set a simple rule then:

When crossing from string to the next string, the stroke on the first string incorporates a rest stroke on the
next string, and incorporates an 'air' rest after falling 'through' the next string from the real rest stroke.
And when not crossing to the adjacent strings, but playing on one string, for example down up down... not using
rest strokes on main adjacent strings, but on those imaginary close strings on each side of the played string.
I know, creating a rest stroke with a muscle memory using imagination sounds a little crazy, but why not give
it a try... the result here would be very tiny movements up and down, that helps to get the notes more
precisely, and a little bit wider motion, to travel from string to string, and yet, smaller for percentage of
1.5-3 mm imaginary rest stroke.
To develop precision with this type of practice is much easier, and cleaner, than by setting your mind into
sleep mode and practice guitar stuff mechanically, hitting the notes every time at different wideness of strokes.
So, turn the youtube or tv down, set ringtones on your cellphone on mute, and really concentrate on what you're
doing.

ODD/EVEN RULE AKA TURNING IT AROUND:

When starting to incorporate directional picking into our arsenal of techniques the next biggest dilemma is
how to approach to certain lick... to change the fingering, or to change the picking style...
Playing scalar shapes using directional picking require odd number of notes per string to go in same direction
across the strings, and even number of notes to go in another direction across the strings... to turn the lick
around... but who said we all want 100 percent directional picking in all cases, while it's already impossible
to do as bunch of licks can't be reframed in any way to accomplish this... why not try to play all the licks we
already know using both, directional and alternate picking where we can, instead of changing every known pattern
into odd/even combination to accommodate directional, or changing every known pattern into repetitive shapes
throwing away some cool interval patterns that makes trouble for alternate picking... that's throwing away the
real idea of what of music is and letting guitar to dictate in which direction music goes...
Why not just experiment with both and use directional where ever you can, if you want more of directional
approach, or where ever it feels 'right', if you want more of alternate approach...

Remember, natural way is only the way you allow to yourself to be natural for you. The natural way is coming
from the head, and not from the muscles/fingers.

Watch closely Yngwie Malmsteen, George Bellas, Frank Gambale, Jimmy Bruno, Ney Mello, Derryl Gabel and Marshall
Harrison.

It really makes sense to study directional picking...

Nice Post! While I don't directional pick, well not yet at least (still working on alt picking). I really do believe its faster for 3nps patterns. Check out Tosin Abasi (one of my favorites!) He's a flat out INSANE directional picker. By the way, this solo would be a total bitch to alternate pick: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rt8IwLeFM38

Wow that is one hell of an interesting post. Thanks for putting in the time to write such a long review of picking technique

Zippoarm, in my case, working on an alternate picking was a gateway to a proper economy/directional
technique,'cuz, you know, directional approach involves just nothing else different than that
directional transition, and everything else stays the same. If you're not unfamiliar with 'UP
licks', the licks starting with an up stroke in alternate picking... if you are, you're screwed...

Everything regarding the picking grip,the elastique feedback of the pick, picking rotation from a
forearm, angles, economy of motion etc...
Pretty much of what I wrote above in the my post, is highly translatable to an alternate picking,
'cuz my basis for alternate lays on exact the same philosophy as directional, as hybrid or legato,
or sweep...

However, directional really IS faster for 3nps patterns, and way much faster for a calculated
(smartly pre-arranged)groups of notes across the strings... but it's all the question of one's
preference what one's needs has to be accomplished...

Tosin Abasi nailed the technique, that's for sure, but it seems to me that he sped his technique
up too soon, watching just his forearm movement, and unnecessary digging into the strings...
Natural player, what else to say.... (I luv progressive music)



fso... I had a need an urge to write about this technique here, as I really do believe this is the
future mainstream technique... alternate will always has it's place, but... every new kid is going
for the mighty... everyone wants his cup of cake... with fast results...this technique for sure has
it's place also.

By the way, that post is nothing but a paraphrased chapter of my upcoming book I'm working
on right now... so, be prepared to be shocked with all new/old innovative and elusive aspects of
guitar playing I' m about to expose... hehe

What book did u copy and paste?????
Did anybody read all that???? Lol.
That's gotta be the worlds longest Thread ever .

Yous guys are Tripping man!!!!!!Lol.

All right guys, long time, no see... due to much things had happenned in my life lately, and being very busy with all sorts of
stuff, I couldn't take amount of time needed to write here, and since I like to write "memoires" obviously, after my "LAST 10 page
long winded message" or "world's longest thread ever" I finally have some time for "typing warm-up exercise", so get prepaired for
my "second 15 page long winded message"...or "world's new most longest thread ever "...

Ok...I'll start this one off with a little reminder:

"PB Guitarstudio FORUMS FORUM RULES: 1. Flaming (the use of abusive language towards others) or abusive language is not allowed.
We are a community not a war zone. Please respect that. Please report abuses to a moderator."

Ok, moderator... I have an NO ABuse to report, because there is not any use of ABs here, no chrunches, no sit-ups...
...no six pack language of any sort... ok, I don't feel any need for abusive language here to make a statement, even as much as I
understand why abusive language might come towards me in the future...

And yes... my posts tends to get really long as my English sucks because it is not my native language, while I'm trying really hard
to find the right words to describe everything as good as I wish to do it in English.

Ok, as I've looked up to see if there is any newer video of Pebber about economy picking and didn't find any, but I've came acroos
very interesting video Pebber did for his "Trail of Tears" song... so let's continue with citation of intro text from this video:

"With all this controversy over illegal immigration and people taking extreme sides on the issue this tune is to remind everyone
of a much forgotten fact: The fact that North America was not the original native land of the White Man. The white man came here
and took what he wanted and destroyed those who got in their way - The Native American Indians. Did the white man "Immigrate
Properly" and "follow the rules"as so many have argued who say they are "not opposed to immigration but only 'illegal immigration'.
Many nations of North American Indians were brutaly slaughtered and destroyed with the settlement of North America by the White
Man. Here are forgotten Native Indian tribes of North America..." (and here goes the huge list of tribes...and after that...)
"Whatever your position is on "Illegal Immigration" Lets not ever forget who was here first.. "This song is dedicated to the many
long forgotten Nations of North America."

Ok, as much as I like very much the "Trail of Tears" song and that guitar tone and phrasing that kicks some major ass... (my
recommendation to everyone to see that video on youtube) at same moment I feel ashamed very much of the things that humans are
capable of to do to other humans, because of things we have done in the past to everyone who was different. At the same time I feel
very proud that I'm different in many ways from other people, like so many other people should be very proud to be very different
from each other... in race, in gender, in tradition, in food/drink preferences, musical taste, way of thinking, observation,
perception... and it still should not make some people to be potential threat to anyone just because of differences. Or should it?

I don't think it should.
____________________________________________________________________________________________________________

OK, let's shed some light on some things I wrote here that might have been missunderstood:

I'm not a guitar teacher, nor a some guitar guru of any type, and definitely not some shred salesman who's promising some sort of
"secret guitar method" full of pointless warm up exercises to delay people's learning progress to charge money for even more new
promising empty volumes 2, 3, 4 up to zillion volume products. I'm not selling anything here. I'm just a guitar player. Well, not
just that, but ok...

So, there's no daily bread stealing, nor student stealing of any kind. No need for hate from any guitar teacher here if there's
more of you, besides Pebber. There's no need for anybody to come across as a total jerk like Guthrie Govan turned out that way in
Pebber's footage of the NAMM '10 show(my recommendation to see NAMM videos too). I'm not some of those "tRolls" either, as Pebber
calls his full of hate jealous anti-fans. I never said you look like giant hampster... or that you fart in quintuplets... or any of
that type of crap. So, even if I could have inspiration for the worst insult on the planet just for a joke, I don't have any need
for that towards anyone, nor any reason to hate anybody, so I believe reason for any hate towards me would be a result of someone's
personal issues.

About the book(as I assume some guys are interested, and some are being sceptical):

My "LAST 10 page long winded message" really is a sort of paraphrazed copy/paste of a chapter from a book I've started to write
even before signup on this forum.. The book will not be finished so soon, I'm really trying my best to make it really cool. The
book will be in comic fashion partialy, Marvel or DC kinda thing, since I'm good at drawing and a comics fan. The book will not be
about economy picking... only. The book will be full of time saving sequences that are working not on only one, but at least on
three things at the same time. The book will not contain any warm up exercises , no musically deaf finger acrobatics, nor any
silent spiders pantomime. Sorry for dissapointment to warm-up exercise collectors, but there's loads of that on the youtube to feed
their hunger. The book will not be for BPM chasers. The book will not be on sale. The book will be absolutely free for every guy on
this forum and for every guy on the planet who's playing guitar. My motif for doing this?

I have a wish to contribute a potential time saving valuable info and lot of things I haven't seen anywhere else for guys who are
this deep in this same shit as I am. Anybody can hate me for this, as people tend to respect guys who are holding back their
information for themselves as they appear mystical in some way to people probably, but I'll get this thing done. For me, and for
all fellow guitar players out there. Music should be sharing, and I'm willing to share my ideas to people who could benefit from
even a single one. Holding back potential valuable information is for jerks.

================================================================================================

...further, some comments... on some comments... and some other comments, without commenting other comments:

Pebber said:

"Hey guys - just remember this - technique is a moving target. I always teach people to ADD Sarod to the existing
arsenal of techniques."

Couldn't agree more on that, Sarod picking motion should be ADDed to other techniques, just like scalpel etc... economy picking
also should be addition to other techniques, as I never said it should be the only one used.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Pebber said:

"Musical ideas and patterns are what you should focus on - the techniques are only ways to get around and play them. End of story."

I agree even more with this one... but then... why we even bother mentioning sarod, scalpel,directional etc... while people easily
loose their focus on main things they should focus on... probably because people hardly can focus on the main thing while technique
issue holds them back as so many techniques mentioned everywhere without detailed explanation makes a big dilemma for them what to
use, when, and how. Almost nobody is willing to try to focus them on elusive details because it's delicate topic and easily can be
a double-edged sword, but people who study guitar in details, need details.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Pebber said:

"I teach all kinds of techniques - including directional and economy picking - however I have not yet done any videos on them due
to lack of time."

I say:

Teaching all kinds of techniques while ideas and patterns are the main shit? Ain't that a little out of focus? Just kiddin'. Lack
of time is a bitch... I know it first hand. I hope some video of you on directional and economy will come up soon. I can't wait, I
know it will be great, just like your other videos.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Pebber said:

"Work on your picking -any way you can and any way you want. Learn all techniques not just one."

But I agree with that also, even your comment again might lead people to think that I was advocating choosing one technique only...
...but wait, this topic is about only one aspect of technique... directional string shifting/economy picking, right? Or it isn't?
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Pebber said:

"What would I say to this?

(Quotes me)"THE ECONOMY OF MOVEMENT(S):
What would you say if I told you that standard guitar doesn't have 6 strings only, but 18 strings, of which 6 are visible, and 12
are perceptible only by a hands of a true master!"

(Continues)"I would say you are delusional and who is this "true master" you are referring to? Yourself? Really. All of this is all
in your own mind obviously. Breaking down 6 strings into 18 with imaginary strings on each side - this is all TOTAL 100% utter
bullshit spoken by someone who has nothing to back up what they say - no videos, no articles in anything - just figments of your
own mind. Its interesting reading up to the point where you start overwhelmingly start to spew complete bullshit."

I say:

Anybody can accuse me for being delusional to a highest degree as much as they want, and anyone can present me in such way by
draging my sentences out of context, like nobody will read my post anyway, and see for self what I'm really talking about if they
try to put it into practice. The "true master" I was referring to, wasn't me, but MOTIVATION for every person who could imagine two
imaginary strings around every string on a guitar by reading what I've wrote, and put an idea of keeping pick close to the strings
while picking into practice just for a fraction of second, to get the idea, not for a lifetime. For people with zero radius of
imagination, I would simply say: keep everything close... and then their imagination would suddenly arise. Man, I really can't
understand how someone could learn even a single scale without visualisation.

Ok, maybe I described it a little awkward for somebody to understand. Especially for dyslectics. Sorry guys. Mike Batio had analogy
for fretting hand where one needed to imagine a line on the front side of the fingers, keeping fingers close to the fretboard, and
not letting those to lift away from a frets very far. Mike also advocates that one need to learn how to play slow first, in order
to learn to play fast, but emphasizes that slow practice should be a product of observation of the fast picking hand technique, by
imitating motions of the higher speeds into exactly the same motions at lower tempos. I had this idea very much on my mind while I
was writing that part on economy of motion, cause many guys practice things at lower tempos way different than it happens at higher
speeds after years of slow progress by gradual increasement of bpm and unconciously changing the technique. I had in mind some
other guitar players also and their approach. Maybe I quote some of them later.

And yes, I have no videos, no articles or whatever to back up this with additional stuff... maybe when book gets finished you
change your mind a bit... maybe not, who knows. If someone is hoping for bad things from someone only, one will focus only on
things for which one can rationalize those as bad things. No proof will be enough for mind change in that case because that type of
decision has been made way before reading any of my stuff. After all, why would I need a video, or article, where I would talk
about exactly things like in book. Maybe to show off or something, but I'm not an approval seeker or some attention whore, I don't
need to impress anybody, so anybody can say I suck, or hate what I'm talking about, but I don't give a damn about that as long as
some things I write can help someone.

The actual video describing this particular approach and lot of other ideas would be great thing to do actually, but without proper
3D technology to illustrate some things, and without editing video with bunch of highlights, it won't serve the purpose, and video
editing and 3D graphics is something I'm yet about to involve into my stuff in future, for maybe better or easier explaining some
ideas for people who are more visual types. First I'll have to buy a camera, of course.

On the other hand, imagine someone is blind, and how could hearing me saying out loud what I wrote would be more descriptional and
easier to understand for them? That's why I wrote it as almost the same as I would describe it to a blind person. That's why would
be nice to do an audio for them with someone who can pronounce English better than me. Do you have any blind friend who play guitar
or any other instrument? Have you ever been in a situation where light bulb goes death leaving you in a total dark... pitch black?
Or any similar situation? It sucks. I also know many people not being blind, but also having a hard time to see the obvious. That's
why I believe observation is important, and why details of the observer are important to be described in specific way.
____________________________________________________________________________________________________________

Here's what Buckethead said about his observation and details:

"I can usually understand what someone's doing pretty quickly. In martial arts, I can see why Bruce Lee was so much better than
everyone else, because of the way he moved his body. It was in the way he held his arms and all those little details. When I saw
Yngwie or Paul Gilbert or Shawn Lane, I could see quickly how they did it, even though it took a lot of time to actually play it.
I looked at Shawn Lane's hands to see how he picks, because technically I've never seen anyone more efficient. Of course, the real
ideas are in his head."

Further, here's what Shawn Lane said about his "most efficient picking" approach, or "squeeze picking" if you like:

"There's a couple of different things. In my case, that's the angle of the pick. I play with a pick on a pretty severe angle.
It's almost sideways, almost totally sideways. I don't always play that way, but when I'm doing lot of faster picking things,
it's pretty much always totally sideways. So, one thing is the angle of a pick, and then the other thing is a kind of the focus
of the movement. If I'm doing it really fast, it's almost like a focusing a squeezing sensation. It's like a phonograph needle.
You just try to focus energy into such a small space... especially when moving around..."
____________________________________________________________________________________________________________

Ok, now "easier" "economotion" explanation for people to understand... Look at your six strings and let's give a name for every
string particularly, using a note that particular string represents for a starting letter of the name. Lets begin with the low E.
Can you think of a really big woman, moustached, with deep alto voice, who's name starts with the letter E...

The first name that came across my mind was Esmeralda. Think of Esmeralda, like being really big, but also a noble kind of person,
and she have made a cake for you, and because of her kindness you're hugging Esmeralda and two Chinese guys from each side of her,
left and right, don't letting you get off your hands from her too much on each side just if you wish to stop hugging and not to
touch her anymore because she would be very sad if you don't hug her again pretty soon, and these Chinese guys gets worry for her
and they keep your hands very closely to make sure you can hug her again if you wish, in a fraction of moment. So, don't make
Esmeralda sad, and don't let Chinese guys gets worry.

Ok, as much as this can be hilarious situation to think about, you probably get the point. Esmeralda is a low E string. Your
hands you're are hugging Esmeralda with, is a down and up pick strokes, and two Chinese guys are two imaginary strings, or maybe
better to say, imaginary lines, like yellow laser beams very near each side of string keeping your pick very close to the string,
while picking on that string.

OK...next string is A, so let's continue with female name starting with letter A... Anna, let's say. A curvy mama, flower power
chick, dressed just like she came right out of the original Woodstock festival, and she's breastfeeding two indigo babys. On her
left breast one indigo baby, on right breast the other one baby. And you're caressing these babys, left baby with your left hand,
and right baby with your right hand. And if you stop caressing one of the child, and move your hand away too far, a child will
start to cry immediately, because these are the indigo children, they simply know when you moved your hand too far, and they're
emotional, and they immediately think you hate them if you move your hands too far from them. Don't let either of two babys to
cry.

Let's continue with D string, letter D...think of Diana, a Californian cutie in a field of orange plants, and she's wearing two
buckets full of oranges, one bucket in each hand. And these buckets are really heavy to carry, so you as real gentleman, is
helping her to carry those buckets. Left bucket with your left hand, to make it easier for her left hand, and when your left hand
gets tired, you give left bucket back to her, and take right bucket to carry with your right hand, to help her to rest her right
arm for a while. And she's walking really slowly, and you're a nervous guy, every now and then you are hurrying and heading too
far from her, and whenever this happens, her hand starts shaking as tired, and spilling oranges from a bucket around the place.
So, don't get too far from her, help her with buckets for each hand, it's a shame throwing these nice fruits away and it's a shame
not to help to this cutie with oranges.

Ok guys... I got carried away a little here... further you can imagine names if you will, for other three strings and a situations
that translates into strings and not going too far from them with a pick... if this can be fun for you...

Anyway, with craziness aside, and to give this economotion thing a little break, idea is really that simple, to keep pick as close
as possible to a string being played, depending on what kind of musical situation you're in.

================================================================================================

Further...on Quote of me:

"What the heck I'm talking about here is using a rest strokes...another rule from Oud thechnique, or in Spanish and classical
guitar 'Apoyando' technique. The flatpick apoyando. Without much thinking about when to use it, and when not, after a short time
after starting to incorporate this it's really helpful. By using real rest strokes, and imaginary rest strokes."

...Pebber said:

"Rest strokes as another RULE from OUD technique? Oh really. What are the RULES of OUD technique? I dont know where you are
getting this idea but I have consulted the TURKISH OUD players that I know including Vikan Najarian and his uncles from ISTANBUL
and they seem to think you are full of shit. Why is that?"

I say:

Probably because the OUD is NOT A TURKISH INSTRUMENT ORIGINALLY. Today's Oud is totally different from the old prototypes and the
TURKISH OUD IS DIFFERENT FROM THE ARABIC OUD IN PLAYING STYLE, size, shape and number of strings. THE TURKISH OUD IS DERIVED FROM
MODIFYING THE ARABIC OUD (to paraphrase wikipedia a little). TRADITIONAL ARABIC OUD TECHNIQUE I'm referring to (TRADITIONAL ARABIC,
as I probably should have emphasize before), actually had RULES(or principles, if it's more correct to say) that some of these are
known to this day as passed through generations, and had even more RULES than any of us could ever find out about in the present
day due to culturocide, or because of improving/changing technique to match the needs of particular regional style, during the past
centuries.

Further, the picking style from Arabic Oud and some other old stringed instruments is direct ancestor of plectrum picking(string
shifting) style popularly called "Gypsy picking" or "Rest stroke picking" among Gypsy jazz guitar players... picking style used by
Django, and much Gypsy Jazz followers, modified a little by Yngwie and Marty Friedman for their needs, used even by Dimeola and
Mclaughlin mostly on their chordal stuff, not to mention bunch of bluegrass guitar and mandolin players. I'm sure you're familiar
with term "crosspicking", or "double-down up" as bluegrass player Brad Davis calls technique similar to that.

As in so called "Gypsy picking" or "Rest stroke picking" traditional Arabic Oud technique actually had the rule/principle for
shifting strings in same direction while playing, with emphasis on down stroke to serve the sound of instrument. I've learned about
this from the Oud player named Marina Toshich. Later, Gipsy Jazz guitar player Michael Horowitz additionally "enlightened" me that
this style was used by almost all stringed instrumentalists of pre-WWII era who used pick or some material similar to it to play
their instruments.
____________________________________________________________________________________________________________

...actually, the erectional picking technique I'm referring to, was taken from 11900 year old Jerkish or Gibberish instrument
called Dicktar, which playing techniques had involved hand movements taken from the old nose picking techniques as described in
ancient Kamashastra from which Kamasutra have originated.
____________________________________________________________________________________________________________
Anyway, Turkish or Arabic style, who cares? We are both wrong and we are both right at the same time in two different directions.
And yes, say hi to Vikan Najarian and all of his uncles. I'm not angry at them for thinking I'm full of shit. They're quite right
about that sometimes, when I need to go to the toilet.

At this point, I'm still surprised that you, as a guitar teacher hero of that range(which means that you're way beyond most popular
guitar "heroes" out there), and Vikan Najarian(not familiar with his work) and any of his uncles, are not familiar with one of the
oldest styles of picking with a plectrum-like "device"... maybe it's really meant to be forgotten, as it's not the perfect
technique for all musical situations. Maybe I didn't described it as it should have been described, so you misunderstood me
completely, I don't know.

Anyways, for everybody here, I recommend reading a book called "Gypsy Picking" by Michael Horowitz, "The Bickford Mandolin Method"
by Zarh Myron Bickford and "Basics of Oud" by Marina Toshich.

Anyway, mentioning Oud was deeply for a motivational purposes regarding similar picking style, just like Pebber involved all this
Sarod thing exactly for that purpose most likely...
____________________________________________________________________________________________________________

Ok, here's something that Pebber said in his older video "PB Picking Basics 101" about picking that put emphasis on forearm
rotation:

"...the style that I've discovered, was borrowed from 4000 year old turkish instrument called the Oud..."
____________________________________________________________________________________________________________
Further about the rest stroke, Pebber said:

"Flatpick apoyando? ALl stringed instruments require the stopping of the string for certain musical ideas. This is not anything new
and definitley not anything that you have special privelidged knowledge about."

I say:

As many people can really miss the point here, if they forget I was talking here further about using two approaches of the rest
stroke of which either of two approaches of the rest stroke is NOT used for stopping of the string, but for STOPPING OF THE PICK.
One is real, one is imaginary. The real one serves for practicing string shift in same direction, and imaginary one serves to hold
us back from escaping the string too far away. Although, you're right that rest stroke is not anything new, but can be used in new
ways, as no "special knowledge" as much as it can be ridiculed, should not be "privileged", but shared.
____________________________________________________________________________________________________________

Here's what Frank Gambale said about rest stroke:

"Remember, whenever you're crossing strings, it's like a classical rest stroke, which means, you let a pick fall. Instead of doing
two downstrokes in a row which defeats the purpose. I've found lot of people doing that. That's not the idea. The idea is to let a
pick fall across the string as though you're just strumming."
____________________________________________________________________________________________________________

Pebber said:

"Nothing like this is productive to do or even think about. You are delusional to a high degree but you know how to lay out what
you say well enough to fool people into thinking you know what you are talking about - which I can definitely say YOU DONT.
Everything you post is all made up fantasy bullshit."

I say:

I believe one man shouldn't really decide what is productive to do or think about for others, and what is not. We are not some sort
of BORG COLLECTIVE here and nobody here should not be ASSIMILATED.(a little of actual fantasy bullshitting here). People should
decide for themselves.

Type of practicing directional string shifting I've described in my "LAST 10 page long winded message" have helped me to develop
economy picking way better than usual mechanical sleep mode approach as many people are advocating, so I've posted my approach
here if someone could benefit from it. Not to fool anybody into anything, or to be a smart ass or something. Only to describe my
approach to one aspect of technique that this topic is about...directional string shifting/economy picking.

================================================================================================

Ultimately, you should do what you feel most comfortable with. You should learn all picking styles. You should learn as much as possible and work on them all.

Do you really think people read this long,boring ludicrous threads???
Practice what ever technique you feel comfortable with..
Like Pebber said, this are just tools.
What ever works for Peter might not work for Paul .
I salute Pebber for been the best guitar structor / teacher/ player on the world wide web.
Peace.

People who are really, and I mean really, really, painfully really serious about guitar, will actually read the whole thing, even if it was double longer thread, they would read it anyway, and search for anything they could find helpful for their playing. From anyone's post on this thread, not only mine.

Guitar is not for lazy people.

Regarding the whole picking hand tech Pebber said it well... and I agreed to that through the topic, and Uderoche as a moderator polished it great, and why you recycled it? Sorry man, but It looks very much like you're kissing someone's ass over my back. Will that someone tell you just because of that that you're playing great if you suck? Ain't gonna happen.

Pebber actually knows his qualities without you, or without me or anyone else... because any of us wouldn't be here if he wasn't that cool.

To kick overall confusion in the ass, this thread(topic, or whatever right word it should be) is about nothing more, and nothing less, than about one aspect of picking technique... directional picking, or more properly said, directional string shifting... economy picking.

And yes, technique is a moving target...

You "move" it greatly in your "ideas for improvisation and scales review" video on Youtube by "scalpel only" or "finger chewing" technique while you're playing ascending alternate picked scales, and you move it to an economy picking while playing descending scales again using almost only "finger chewing" technique. I know, you'll say it's naturally for you that way, but again, technique is a moving target... just like confusion.

What comes naturally is a way different from what works naturally.

As opposed to you, I like to check all of my fellow guitar players' progress, as here, as anywhere else, that's why I've bounced an eye on your Youtube videos, and I've even read your posting on www.jazzguitar.be...(and I know you've read all posts there, unlike here, even those posts in general are longer than my "ludicrous" post here).

And yes, you should not read any of posted before in this thread... it could install "pseudo out of body" experience in you. So stay away from this mambo jumbo.

You are right I have read longer threads then yours, it is the way you expose your idea is to complex for my normal person brain .
Since you check my videos can I check your maybe you are better than Pebber Brown and I am missing on an opportunity to become a better guitar player.
I never said I was a good guitar player, the contrary I started playing electric guitar almost 2 years ago, and I never played with the pic before, everything I learned on the electric guitar I learned from watching Pebber's video on YouTube I didn't even know how to hold the pic , didn't know not even one scale.
So based on my experience I can "kiss ass" because Pebber's method is working for me and it is totally free.
I'm not trying to pick a fight, u post ur ideas and I post mine, Thas all.

As much as someone's ass kissing doesn't involves me in that type of conversation dynamics, I don't mind. Leave me out of any kind of ass kissing or I'll kick your ass! Joking man, there's no need for any hostile behavior.

Actually, my threads gets that huge because I'm really trying as hard as I can to explain every idea in smallest detail that people can understand easily what I'm talking about. I wouldn't say I expose it too complex, probably it appears to people that way, since everybody gets shocked when he/she stumbles upon thread that requires concentration through long reading. If you could read everything I wrote here, you would actually see it isn't that complex as it looks like from your current perspective. I check everyone's video here, who ever have a video, because I believe that everyone could learn something from anyone, even from a beginner, because similar stuff reflects different on various people. I actually tried to connect my never used before webcam(Trust eCoza) to make a video of one part of my approach to pentatonic and maj7/min7,min7b5 workout across the whole neck that helped me map that stuff over the neck for easier learning, and I believe it could help to you maybe, or someone else, but my webcam won't work. It could be that it's broken or my Windows7 are not compatible with it, dunno. So until I can get a new webcam, I could write it down in tab for you, if you would like to try that.

I don't consider myself better of anyone just depending on whatever level of my guitar playing might be, for me, or for someone else. No one is a better person from someone else because of guitar playing level. It's only amount of effort you put in specific skill set to develop and different approach artistic expression for different people. But life isn't only that, you know this. Pebber is a teacher, one of the best around, and I'm not a teacher, so comparing me with Pebber is inappropriate thing to do. I don't know if any of us here is a teacher, besides Pebber, but we actually all could learn something from each other. I believe Pebber doesn't have that much time to answer every single question here, so we all have an opportunity to help each other if we can, or just try to help if we maybe have an information about something someone else is interested in. So man, I'm not your enemy here, I'm your friend. That's why it bothers me to get flamed over stuff I wrote here I put my time and effort in for open minded fellow guitar players who welcome ideas of other people, not for my ego.

Send me the tabs, charts if you don't mind. I'm open to new ideas, when you get a webcam shoot me a video .

Ok man, here's tab of pentatonic workout, it's easier to play than to write it down, so I didn't have time to write all the fingerings through it all, but it's pretty repetitional so it uses all the same fingerings whenever the particular shape is reused.

http://www.box.net/shared/uv3x6eo6b55o4srz1tn7

...and if you have trouble to figure it how to move across the neck here's first 16 notes in diagrams...

http://www.box.net/shared/b0pus3k4eo6x636hpkty

...and I captured a neck from tab software in flash video where you can actually see movement of shapes...

http://www.box.net/shared/ep6gf4s14jrf0fz24ix0

...It takes time to write this type of whole neck workouts, so be patient for more pentatonic and arpeggio stuff in the future...

...and now I'm going out to drink some beer...

All right man, I haven't look them up yet but I will soon, thanks for your time and effort.
Have you ever see a series of videos from "Monster jazz" on YouTube ?
Kinda cool motivational kinda thing. I'm trying to buy John coltrane's book "chase that trane"
That's is also good as a motivational tool.