Thanks once again for all the help and advice, I realise that I've said thanks in every post but you guys have been so helpful heh, I've been working on it and have seen a slight improvement of the motion with thanks to Frakhs advice. Using the pen trick in the video I realised that I was stiffening up my forearm too much without realising it and worked on just relaxing the forearm. I just need more time and practice as Pebber said there is no instant gratification on advance techniques.
Also well spotted Debilius, I've been doing pure scalpel picking for over a year now and got the motion down first and went on to try and find my angle and then I focused on making the upstrokes and downstrokes match along with muting. With Sarod I've found that sometimes I'll strike up too hard or dig the pick too deep which messes up my timing and articulation, it needs loads of work, although I'm trying not to pay too much attention to articulation or any form of muting until I have the actual motion down first, but if you think I should practice it all at once I'd be open to give it a try.
Oh, also just to update I've decided to focus on pure sarod for a couple of years or however long it takes and then add the hybrid when I feel that I have the pure motion with no scalpel picking locked in properly.
Just when I thought I was getting the hang of the 5 note groupings Pebber's vol 2 pulls out the skipping of strings. Fuck. I had to drop my BPM by 50 clicks?!?! Odd number divisions & string skipping is a punch in the face... wholly fuck I suck! Hey... wholly fuck I suck.... I think that phrase has five beats in it....
RE: SARODin PB Guitarstudio FORUMS Sat Oct 13, 2012 3:37 pm
by uderoche (deleted)
Some sarod picking on my facebook page
I'm about to give sarod picking a go, so I had a couple of questions if you don't mind. (Awesome vids, btw - superhuman picking speed!)
If the line from the bridge to the nut is 12 o'clock, then it scalpel picking makes the pick cross the string somewhere between 1 and 2 o'clock (right?). Standard wrist picking would make it cross at 4 or 5 o'clock. What about sarod? From what I can tell, it seems like that too is at 4/5 o'clock. I'm just wondering how this fits in when you're doing a hybrid between scalpel and sarod - is it okay that the two techniques are crossing the string at different angles? It seems like you might end up with some sort of circular motion.
FRaKh - in one video you mention how it's good to dig in when you're warming up with sarod. That sounds like a great observation. However, seeing as it seems to be such a light-handed technique, I'm wondering how you dig in without throwing yourself off balance? Do you need to rest your arm somewhere to act as a pivot?
Finally, should I start trying this technique at a slow speed, or is it actually easier to begin moving the wrist rapidly?
Thanks in advance guys!
The scalpel picking I think should be at 4-5 o'clock...if I am seeing it correctly...which is about the same as say wrist picking. The pick should be doing a 45 degree angle at most...to the strings. Anything more creates pick noise...scraping along the strings as you pick.
The Sarod movement is one of those things where you have to find where you are comfortable holding the pick....the degree of angle with respect to the strings. The standard degree..45.....which would be around 4-5 o'clock....is kinda where you start until you get the feel.
As far as it being ok to have different degrees with both techniques. Its kinda starnge you mentioned it because...for me....with scalpel there is a sort of solid angle I am comfortable with. Sarod on the other hand is such a blend with different techniques that I can actually move the pick around.....the placement of the pick in my fingers....while I play....changing the angle as well. Its a really great technique!
For the question.....try staying with the basics...same 4-5o'clock angle just to start. After a while you can experiment with different angle...ect. Over years you will get the feel of where you should be with respect to tone(angle of the pick)
The circular motion....ala Malmsteen....I guess could be one solution to the technique. But until the years are spent practicing it.....it may be just a phase of development with it. I tried the circular motion before......it cant keep up with the Sarod so finally I went into what I call Marker Notes....in the Sarod vids.
Digging in is how I warm up. It warms up my forearms and gets my in sync with the technique, especially if I didnt get a chance to practice for a while. After about ohhh half an hour or so I am warmed up and can use a lighter touch with the pick.
For Sarod...playing slow is going to be the challenge. Playing fast is going to be easy....makesure you can do both.
Practice on one string only with Sarod...to ensure you have the movement down. Then venture out to Alternate picking across the strings. Same when you start doing the Hybrid.
“A World Without String Is Chaos”
But wait, you're saying scalpel picking is at 4-5 o'clock also? I think I must be doing it wrong. I've been holding the pick at around 45 degrees, pointing from the upper rear horn to the front lower horn. With wrist picking I'd move this so the flat of the pick crossed the string at 4-5 o'clock, going from upper front horn to lower rear horn. With scalpel picking I've been crossing the string in the same direction as the pick is held - upper rear horn to lower front horn and back.
Have I got it totally wrong?
I think Frakh is talking from looking down at the guitar fom 12 oclock but from your analogy the neck being 12 oclock the yes scalpel
would be 2-3 o,clock
was trying to show someone scapel this week took em a while to fathom the angle as they have the pick flat.
there is a bunch of videos in here that explain it better than I ever could
Ah, so you're talking about 'the third dimension'? 12 o'clock is point out from the flat of the body, 6 is pointing into it, and 3 is kind of point along the forearm? If I'm right, you're suggesting the pick should be held at 4-5 o'clock rather than 6, as I'd previously thought? This is very interesting, since I'd found my pick moving to 4-5 o'clock like this without me thinking about it. Whenever I correct it back to 6, it sounds a bit too 'spiky'.
Also, I guess my previous question still stands - thinking in terms of looking down on the body of the guitar as a clock face, is it a problem that scalpel and sarod have the pick crossing at different angles? (I guess not, but I'm not sure I understand why it isn't).
Anyway, I'm off for more practice now....
I forgret what times it is...hehehe
I try to keep the pick at around ohhh...20-30degrees. Its a good clean tone for me.
On some of the vids the camera show pretty well the angle of attack. Try strolling through all the vids here and I am sure you find the answer through vid. On my video I know I show the angle well.
“A World Without String Is Chaos”
1st 10 seconds scalpel. After is over exaggeration of sarod for starting out.
Upstrokes didn't sound good at all, they sounded good to me...but who knows this piece of shit microphone may be on to something :)
Anyway today was the first day of working with sarod. Scalpel I am at 416 bpm and just figured time to jump over to hyperdrive. I showed scalpel so the differences between scalpel and sarod for me are shown. I know eventually it will be a shaking wrist and your thumb and forefinger will automatically be shot out(if they are loose), but I read somewhere for starting out, just over exaggerate
Just wanted your opinion on whether this looks like the correct technique for sarod:
I have quite a swan-arch between wrist and forearm - this seems to be the best way for me to ensure I'm using a sarod-style wrist swing rather than falling back into my old habit of a standard wrist swing.
Also, as you'll note, I'm using my little finger to cross the strings for damping. I realize this may be marginally slower than having my hand in a fist, but that's a compromise I'm willing to make.
Thanks in advance!
(Yes, I know it sounds like crap at the moment!)