hey there john. i think this because we both started with practicing only scalpel techniques. i think i should have working on both techniques from the start. there's a lot you have to give into one technique to get it down right. like - practicing upstroke, downstroke, adjacent string, open string separately. to get used to scalpel i had to do all these for last three months. so i don't really expect sarod to work sooner than that. maybe it'll take longer. i began at 60 to get the feel of it. i must slow down the metronome from next week and really get into it. meanwhile i'll be studying pebber and frakhs sarod videos more closely

Hey ashan,

Actually, I originally used a picking technique that was wrist only. Then I switch to just using my thumb and first finger when I was in college. I only picked up the pick again after watching Pebber (that was back in January-ish). I didn't know anything about sarod or scalpel. It was all Pebber.

How I went for so long without it boggles my mind.

Hey Pebber,

I just got Vol. 2 and 3 and plan to watch them asap. I agree with you about the sarod. I'm still a beginner at it but the potential and progress that I've witnessed so far makes me think how many years were wasted. Unreal. I think about all the teachers I've had when I was younger. Fuck me, eh?

What's really interesting to me is how freeing it is. I used to have so much tension in the right hand when I used to pick from the wrist. I would feel pain in my wrist, elbow,and shoulder. That's why when I was back in school I switched to just using my thumb and first finger. But, your videos on Youtube totally made me rethink the possibility of playing with the pick again.

Now that I've been at it I'm hooked. I kinda looked at it as an experiment when I first started. So after reading the post where you asked everyone to post a video I figured. Fuck it. Pebber wants it then maybe I should.

So thinking about it afterwards... I posted the one video all ready so I figure, just for fun I'll post another one in a year just to see how it goes. Ultimately it will show that this is what happens after a year of doing it everyday.

For "heretics"... Pebber is a live proof that Sarod picking works on a guitar... Frakh and Ursin also... and many other students...

I remember myself sitting back in a day there where I always did most of the thinking - on the toilet, and while doing what man's gotta do, I did some air guitar right hand motion/scratching my belly motion in fashion of fast picking... and I've noticed that I did the motion I never used to do before on a real guitar... a rotation motion. It was a huge revelation since it seemed so natural so immediately after wiping my ass and flushing my memories down the toilet I went online to check if there's someone that came across this same idea... first thing I could find was some Oud forums that had the technique pretty much under the belt, and some Pablo Gilberto's student on some guitar forum, where he explained how Paul told him about this "turning a key in a locker" picking motion... later I came across some Ney Mello's "turning a door knob" advice... but later, when I came across Pebber's videos, it swept me of my feet literally.

I remember the moment when I first time thought of "incrementalism" as Pebber calls it and worked on that type of practice 15 years ago, and have shown it to a few of my very talented guitar buddys and they've called it bullshit back then... and it turned out that Pebber advocates this approach big time... and I remember I had an idea of dead end positional phrase recovery by pivoting from pinky to a logical next position with an index finger on the same string - positional skipping, as I called it from the beginning... and people also said it's all bullshit, and again Pebber does it in much different situations. And all this Sarod(Oud) and Scalpel concepts... what a peace of work...

For myself, as a guy who like distorted tone very much, I've adjusted Sarod motion with some thumb pseudo-anchoring on lower strings to filter out the unwanted "sympathetic" noise while playing single note stuff with distortion and I even managed to use a combo of Sarod and Scalpel whien I'm using economy picking... it can be done. DDU, DUU and similar semi-directional patterns also works really great using the combination of these two techniques.

Sarod really works for everything, if you turn the off the tv, social networks and other distraction shit, and practice the damn guitar with focus as it's supposed to be practiced, you'll get results.

Once you get it you got it...
Use what I call Marker Notes!!!!!
You WIll gain a better understanding of the patterns and how the right will sync with the left.
Just watch the videos...its "ALL THERE".

Maybe I should put it on a dvd...but then Im not as famous as Paul or the rest.....I could sell it for a buck!!!
lol!

Im still working on "flight patterns".

I need more time to practice.
Besides Im saving up for an Adamas. I hope the next videos will be with her.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UB9FCjEIhwY

My attempt at a little sarod on acoustic

Left a note on the video....

Heres a couple of quick vids may help Frakh

Are you locking down your arm against the guitar?
You have it really tight...I couldnt see any movement on your forearm...good!
The angle is deceiving but I think you got it.
How about alternate picking on two strings?
If you can...try playing a 2 nps pattern then go immediately into a 3 nps pattern
go back and forth with those two in order to get used to the different feel.

Im glad to see you practice on an acoustic!!!
Thats the ultimate test to see if you have it "clean".

First time trying it on the acoustic, my hand does sit just above the bridge and my fleshy part under the thumb brushes the strings muting my hand floats a little more on the electric but yes i do rest my forearm on the body.
i will get a video up on the electric.

do you mute while using sarod too..

32nd notes at 140bpm I would not of thought possible until following pebbers instructions.

As far as muting....I guess I should spend more time on that but I am really only interested in taking what I have...right now....to the next level. Thats my focus at this time. I still feel awkward to mute...but thats just because I dont focus on it yet...my fault.

Yes...Pebbers method works!
I said that for almost 25 years...lol.
There are others on here who have it down as well!
I hope they start making videos to show how they learned it here...followed the instructions...and wa la...they are at Gilberts speed if not better!!
VERY Impressive....:)

Frakh, marker notes you've mentioned... I'm using similar term according to accented notes, but I'm little curious here, do you call them as marker notes in fashion of accent, or next string orientation accents, or down stroke points in the "lick"?

Also, the "flight" patterns... are you thinking of "position skipping" or something else?

Nah...
They are notes where I consciously pay attention to in order to make sure I am on the right track as far as alternate picking through an exercise. Say...10 notes in I sould have an upstroke (with proper alt picking)...if I dont i screwed up somewhere and need to either slow down or start over and pay attention.

For ease of understanding I created them on every other string as you practice a scale(upstroke...upstroke...upstroke)......kinda see what Im getting at??

When you hit the higher speeds you have to think 8....12....16 notes ahead...right? Otherwise you will get nowhere and you wont be able to push the boundaries. The marker notes just let me know Im flying correctly....thats all. Just notes I concentrate on in order to make sure Im alt picking correctly.

"Flight Patterns" is a whole set of patterns/exercises I arranged just for Sarod. I cant even get half way through one set because they are intense!!!!!
You must have the trill down in order for your left hand to take it. Mine falls apart around the ninth fret at jogging speeds....so Im trying to get them down so I can make a descent video. They are basically symmetric scales designed to torture you left hand and develop your Sarod alternate picking across ALL the strings. Hand movement and positioning is a must with these things.

But most importantly...
I am trying to develop a whole new technique...:)))))))))
or at least incorporate a brilliant one into my own.
I need to run it by Master first before I show it.
I call it....

"Double Sarod"

Ever since I switched back to a floating style of picking I've been dabbling around again with sarod picking; I feel that if my pinky is not being anchored, sarod picking is the most natural way to pick. Personally, I'm not a huge fan of scalpel picking, so I'm going to stay far away from that. When I was in elementary school, my right-hand thumb was hit with a metal bat ... So ever since then, thumb movement can sometimes feel a little crunchy hah!

unless I am mistaken this banjo guy is using Sarod and man he sure can play fast!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qgCXDYPeBGc

Hey guys, I'm new to the forums and new to the sarod/hybrid technique. I was wondering if I anyone could tell me if I'm on the right path or not with the motion and maybe give me some constructive criticism. I'm currently only working on the Right Hand module for around 4-5 hours a day and then the rest is brushing up on theory as I have injured my wrist (You can probably see the wrist supports on my left hand for like one frame of the video haha).

I found the motion very weird at first but I've got used to it now and need to work on accuracy and switching strings for a while, I hope the camera angle is okay because it was kinda hard to hold it up there.

Thanks in advance guys.

I apologize but I cannot tell from this angle. However, it appears you are on the right track.

Hey, thanks for the reply and I'm sorry about the camera angle... I've done a new one however it has to be on electric guitar as it's 2:30am here in England! Hope this is a better one thanks.

I like that!
That banjo guy is fricking GOOD!!!

BUT

I could not see his forearm. Thats the DEAD GIVEAWAY.
Otherwise it just looks like a loose wrist.

HHmmmm....that would be a cool way to hide a technique...lol.

I agree with Ursin, it appears you are on the right track. I want to see you exaggerate the Sarod movement...just so I know you understand the concept. If you have it down...it looks really good and tight. One thing I might be seeing is the exaggerated movement of Scalpel and not enough Sarod. Its a balance which is why I want to see you exaggerate the Sarod movement. Let Sarod do the work for you. What you want to see eventually is very little Scalpel movement...more Sarod. Then when you start to hone in on the technique....just a blur....very little Sarod movement...very little Scalpel movement. Take a look at my old video....the Scalpel movement is almost not noticed. That...I absolutely believe...is the way to go. The economy of motion is getting to be on the money with that video and I am working on that today.

Sooo

Think of a balance of motion...little less Scalpel Motion....little more Sarod...lets see what that produces for you.

Hey, thanks for your criticism I have been working on your advice for around 6 hours now (not enough time really, but I'm using less scalpel now) and hope I've made some progress in the right direction as far as the motion is concerned. I realise that this technique will take loads of work but I feel the effort will pay off big time, especially after seeing your old sarod video to help get an indication of the balance required. I feel like I've been flooding up this thread with my sarod attempts, sorry for that guys.

I decided to over exadurate what I believe to be the sarod movement slowly and then build up a bit so you could see what's going on, I hope this new angle will help too I think it shows more of my forearm movement and more of the thumb so hopefully you can see clearer than before despite the awful lighting. Any advice would be appreciated and I'd like to thank you for taking time out of your day to help me with my technique.

Its no prob!!
Thanx for the question...love it!

your Sarod is soo tight of a movement....:)
I might see more wrist this time.

take a look at this video
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A0zO09DIfL8&feature=plcp

see how I exagerated the movement...that full rotation. thats what you have to get down...that IS the power behind it.
Practice each technique separately before you practice them together.
Sarod by itself....scalpel by itself.

It will take some time to get them down...maybe even several years for the basic idea.

you have time.....

Give it a month then make another video...unless you have specific questions....then cool.

Frakh, I understand what you're getting at with your style of marker notes... it's something I saw Paul Gilbert use, but mostly on down strokes in odd rhythmic figures. I use it also sometimes, but less these days. For me, it's still in domain of accenting notes, but in one's focus, rather than in one's hands. Some people(I saw G.Govan does this) focus on string shifting strokes be it downstrokes, or upstrokes... I mostly prefer to do actual accents that serve timing regardless the fingering shapes or picking patterns.

I think all of 3 approaches mentioned above are great.

Can't wait to see these "Flight Patterns" of yours, and "Double Sarod" of course.

Great videos BlackStarVII... you're on the right track... listen everything Frakh says and you won't reget it.

Reminds me a bit of my Sarod style, and yes I also have some wrist movement in it, and I believe it's due to resting forearm on the guitar and muting non-played strings... but yes, it's absolutely a must to develop Sarod and Scalpel motions independently to use it properly in combination.

And also, it sounded me on one of your videos like you're hitting harder on upstrokes, so working on getting the same sound from both strokes, up and down would probably be good idea to focus on also.

And for JoelMedina and all people who fucked up the thumb of the picking hand once in their lives, and because of that Scalpel motion might be real pain in the ass... here's what helped me... I've focused on that Scalpel motion to primary come from the index finger motion, not from the thumb, so index finger is the real force and thumb is follower. For upstrokes, curve the index finger up, and thumb is loose and follow the curvature, and for downstrokes, release the index finger which results with getting the thumb in relaxed straight position. Hope it helps.