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#151

RE: SAROD

in PB Guitarstudio FORUMS Tue Jun 18, 2013 10:59 am
by pebberbrown • 876 Posts

Heres a guy doing Van Halen Style tremolo picking which is almost IDENTICAL in every way to Sarod picking except these Van Halen guys are only doing it on single string - never any scales or multiple strings. But the motion is the same - this is good footage and this guy has it down (on one string). Eddie footage is all over YouTube and I dont have time to sift through the mass amount of it to find the passages where he does the tremolo picking but its there if anyone wants to spend the time looking for it.

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#152

RE: SAROD

in PB Guitarstudio FORUMS Tue Jun 18, 2013 2:09 pm
by FRaKh • 320 Posts

Try a different camera angle....I have to see your wrist.
The first video I couldn't see...I have to log in and I forgot my password...lol.....Ill get it fixed soon.
It looks like you are getting more and more comfortable.
That jumping effect is what I noticed as well.

NOW.....keep playing across the strings....spend a bit more time getting it down because right now you are at a spot where you are developing that technique...SPEND EXTRA TIME on alt picking across the strings. Coils are a great way to get it down!

Good for you


“A World Without String Is Chaos”

Rudolf Smuntz
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#153

RE: SAROD

in PB Guitarstudio FORUMS Tue Jun 18, 2013 2:12 pm
by FRaKh • 320 Posts

Looks like your having fun....which is cool...but in technique language...tighten it up and make the movement vibrate.


“A World Without String Is Chaos”

Rudolf Smuntz
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#154

RE: SAROD

in PB Guitarstudio FORUMS Tue Jun 18, 2013 2:17 pm
by FRaKh • 320 Posts

My take is it almost the same as the stiff arm technique.....the ability to be fluid with the alt picking is not really there.
Directional picking may be an option for this type of technique......or just carpet bomb the notes....
but
I have never spent the 2 years practicing the VH style.....but I did spend a couple of years when I was younger with the stiff arm technique.


“A World Without String Is Chaos”

Rudolf Smuntz
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#155

RE: SAROD

in PB Guitarstudio FORUMS Tue Jun 18, 2013 3:06 pm
by NicholasJacquet (deleted)
avatar

lol at the Mayton vid....well no wonder you dont feel any need to pay all that speed stuff any mind Pebber...Geeze I wish I could commune with Sarod as you do.,,the most blistering of the Sarod


Last edited Tue Jun 18, 2013 3:07 pm | Scroll up

#156

RE: SAROD

in PB Guitarstudio FORUMS Tue Jun 18, 2013 3:29 pm
by NicholasJacquet (deleted)
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I beleive it was Frakh, that told me once that before I could understand Sarod...I first had to understand the concept of a name So yea the name is really an essential part of it.


Last edited Tue Jun 18, 2013 3:31 pm | Scroll up

#157

RE: SAROD

in PB Guitarstudio FORUMS Tue Jun 18, 2013 8:35 pm
by John567 • 156 Posts

Hey Guys,

This is an open question for everybody, so if you have any insight let me know.

I'm still practicing my sarod on single strings but lately I'm combining sarod with my diminished scale practicing. Here's a sample of what I'm doing.



As you can see it becomes very difficult to keep in time and smooth.

When ascending, I'm approaching the next string with a down stroke so it definitely feels better then when descending where I'm approaching the above string by skipping over it first.

Now, my question is should I keep practicing it this way or change picking direction when ascending?

Any insight would be great….


John567

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#158

RE: SAROD

in PB Guitarstudio FORUMS Tue Jun 18, 2013 8:43 pm
by pebberbrown • 876 Posts

Looks kind of more like alternate than Sarod... Sarod makes more of a "Swan" wrist (raised up a little). This is a good exercise though. The trick is to play Sarod on one note of the scale at a time not 8 picks on each note. Good job though!

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#159

RE: SAROD

in PB Guitarstudio FORUMS Wed Jun 19, 2013 6:00 am
by student • 146 Posts

Pebber,

I would appreciate it if you could elaborate on this(the "why" if you will):
"The trick is to play Sarod on one note of the scale at a time not 8 picks on each note."

I ask because I do the same thing as John does when working in Module 1, ( example: 4 picks per note, 3 picks per note, 1 pick per note, etc ).
When I work in Module 3, it is usually 1 note per pick.

Thank you in advance

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#160

RE: SAROD

in PB Guitarstudio FORUMS Wed Jun 19, 2013 2:48 pm
by FRaKh • 320 Posts

The ultimate goal is to be able to fly through scales using the Sarod technique. Imagine how fluid that would be!!
Picking 4 per note...ect is all good....good practice....but the ultimate goal is to be able to flutter through the scale runs using Sarod.

Practice everything...:)

Take it up to 11 picks per note....ect......


“A World Without String Is Chaos”

Rudolf Smuntz
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#161

RE: SAROD

in PB Guitarstudio FORUMS Wed Jun 19, 2013 4:01 pm
by student • 146 Posts

Right on FRaKh, thanks!

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#162

RE: SAROD

in PB Guitarstudio FORUMS Wed Jun 19, 2013 5:03 pm
by John567 • 156 Posts

.... ah yes.... to flutter.... :D

And yet another sarod video and question:

Pebber mentions that there should be a "goose neck" shape. So, I'm wondering how much of a goose neck should there be?

Here's a sample of me with my wrist in close. Then a sample with the "goose neck" or as close as I can get it. Finally, I try to move back and forth between the two.



I've noticed the more distance my wrist is from the strings the more I have to reposition my pick. Its also more awkward for me. Like starting at the beginning-from scratch. Feels like there is more weight behind it. More momentum.

The closer I am to the string (I'm still rotating the forearm) the more control I get and I feel like I can dig in more with the pick if I had to. Not a heavy feeling.

So, I'm guessing that the closer you are to the string you would call "alternate" picking? And the further your wrist is away from the string you would call "sarod"?

Do I got the right definitions?


Last edited Wed Jun 19, 2013 5:04 pm | Scroll up

#163

RE: SAROD

in PB Guitarstudio FORUMS Thu Jun 20, 2013 10:23 am
by student • 146 Posts

John don't listen to me, ok now I will talk !

I think sarod is independent of whether you are close to the strings or not. As long as it feels loose and that forearm is a rotatin...all is good. I am speaking selfishly now, but in alot of vids that I have of myself(alot of them not posted on here)...I had a hard time figuring out if I was doing sarod, until I took a video with the camera directly under my hand pointed up. I could then see that my hand was rotating(see my last vid..for camera angle).

I have a long ways to go with this, but it feels relaxed....so I dig it!

One thing I also want to add, is that having somewhat of bend in the wrist "crane-neck" seems to allow me to go from a sarod to a strum easier,,,,whereas if my wrist is parallel to the strings I have more control over picking, however my strumming is not as fluid as "crane-neck".

It is still way too early for me to tell which hand position of sarod will be my preferred method, one thing though is that I am going to take my time working with lots of angles, lots of crane-neckedness !

I think Pebber said something along the lines of "Don't stick to a technique just because it feels good now, sometimes you have to forego the instant gratification to gain something even better"


Last edited Thu Jun 20, 2013 10:26 am | Scroll up

#164

RE: SAROD

in PB Guitarstudio FORUMS Thu Jun 20, 2013 12:12 pm
by dlraben • 278 Posts

John, don't listen to me either, but those videos don't look like Sarod to me.

For me, and of course I'm still learning too, I worked in two stages:

1) Figure out the feeling of the Sarod movement. Pebber said to visualize stirring liquid in a glass with a spoon. Frakh showed himself doing this with an ordinary pen. Ursin showed him doing this in a video higher up in this thread where he pointed his hand at the camera and rotated the forearm so the palm faced the ceiling and then the floor. I work all day in front of a computer at a desk, and so I use Frakh's method most. I also have a 30 minute drive to work and I keep a pen in my car. However, I couldn't start out with the pen method feeling right because I had no forearm muscles built up. What did work for me though, was keeping my upper arm relaxed & down with my elbow at my side, and my forearm straight out parallel to the floor. Then, with my hand holding a pick, I pretended I was turning a key inserted into a dead bolt lock. Start with palm up and thumb right, and rotate to palm down and thumb left (for righties). For me, that was the feeling of Sarod. In time I was able to do the pen (not like Frakh, but who can?). Capture that feeling however you can. It doesn't look like you quite have it yet. Then step 2.

2) I tried tons of different arm, wrist, pick positions until I could pick on 1, 2, 3 or all strings at once AND replicate the feeling of the movement that I ingrained in step 1. At first I had an ultra swan looking hand. I could do the movement without touching the strings, but then it would fuck up whenever I tried to hit them. After more time I could pick cleanly for a few beats of various tuplets on a single string, but then glitch. Several weeks/months later, I could go as long as I wanted on a single string at moderate speeds. Further up in this thread is basically where I am now. Not close to there yet because I'm not playing scale runs fast, but certainly to respectable speeds on various picking exercises. Anyway, gradually through this process as my forearm muscles grew and as my hand muscles were needed less, my wrist has flattened out to much less of a swan position.

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#165

RE: SAROD

in PB Guitarstudio FORUMS Thu Jun 20, 2013 4:21 pm
by John567 • 156 Posts

Thanks guys.

So I guess the name of the game is the forearm rotation (with or with out the goose neck?)?

I'm still a bit unclear about the definition. So sarod is….

1. Rapid rotation of the forearm.
2. Has a "goose neck"?.
3. ….


With regards to what diraben talked about, here is a vid of me rotating my forearm.




Is this the kind of rotation we are talking about?

In any event, I'm still picking away and found much progress using Pebber's modules/DVD as a template. Sometimes I'll flutter for a few seconds when playing/practicing with BIAB. But, its brief and a bit sloppy, yet, better than it was a year ago...

… and diraben… your guitar looks better and better with each vid. :D

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#166

RE: SAROD

in PB Guitarstudio FORUMS Thu Jun 20, 2013 4:52 pm
by NicholasJacquet (deleted)
avatar

The ability to efficiently conjure up flutter when approaching phrases that require picking that is 140ish 16s and upwards I think is heavily tied to ones ability to have their brain send the commands to very specific muscle groups to take over without any there being any confusion resulting btw those muscles on is telling to trigger and others that need to stay still. Its similiar i think to the bad kind of tension that typically the result of bad technique where on one hand you are telling your flexors to tighten and your extensors to release...the result is a communal confusion btw the muscle groups...Its like if one manager is telling you "turn to the right" in one ear while another is telling you "turn left" in the other ear...the result is that you wind up not being able do either and you lock up/ say ones vibrato muscles one would need for Sarod were going off and at the same time the muscles that one would rely on for alternate wrist picking were triggering...the resultant effect is that the efforts coming from each can wind up rendering the others ineffective...Dont let your muscles fight each other...learn to use each set in perfect isolation...then once you get to a certain level of competence with each, then you can start experimenting with having them work together at once without having them interfere with each other. Otherwise they will go after each other until the weakest succumb to the strongest. Like if one puts a couple of male beta fish together in a group talk...they will kill each other off...and even the strongest one that is left alive after the brawl that will ensue will probably be missing a fin or two/


Last edited Thu Jun 20, 2013 4:54 pm | Scroll up

#167

RE: SAROD

in PB Guitarstudio FORUMS Thu Jun 20, 2013 5:27 pm
by dlraben • 278 Posts

John, yep, that's what it looked like when I was trying to get the feel of the movement down. As you develop those muscles, you'll be able to sustain it and make the movement smaller. I think we're talking months/years here though. I've come so far (see below) but when I see videos from the experts here I see that I'm really only just beginning.

I need measurable things to stay motivated, so I've been jotting down times & tempos of exercises & licks. Like "played 5-tuples at X for Y minutes" or played exercise A in book B at C bpm. Whatever. I don't go crazy here, but maybe once every 6 months I'll pull out that paper and see where I'm at. Cliff mentioned Stetina's book a few times. I used to just write speeds in that before I found Pebber's stuff. Now I just jot down stuff from modules 1, 2 and 3. Only mentioning this because each check-up gives me a nice motivation boost to keep at it. Of course I couldn't really keep that guitar sitting on its stand anyway!

Oh, and LET'S GO HEAT!!!


Last edited Thu Jun 20, 2013 5:28 pm | Scroll up

#168

RE: SAROD

in PB Guitarstudio FORUMS Thu Jun 20, 2013 6:27 pm
by Cliff • 344 Posts

Yes, my copy of Stetina has lots of speed annotations as I progressed. Alas, after my initial few months where I thought my speed was improving dramatically, I've realized that most of what I was playing sounded crap, so I slowed right down. But that's just me. I definitely agree that some means of measuring progress is invaluable for inspiration. But for me, at this point in time, speed is not that measure.

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#169

RE: SAROD

in PB Guitarstudio FORUMS Fri Jun 21, 2013 2:18 pm
by student • 146 Posts

Sarod, 208 bpm, quarter notes, muted. This is a 2 in 1 post (make sure my timing is on + still a saroding)

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#170

RE: SAROD

in PB Guitarstudio FORUMS Fri Jun 21, 2013 3:44 pm
by FRaKh • 320 Posts

I still see wrist....but it could be the camera angle...

I tried to focus on your forearm....but I didn't see the rotation I was looking for...

Could be the camera angle???


“A World Without String Is Chaos”

Rudolf Smuntz
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#171

RE: SAROD

in PB Guitarstudio FORUMS Fri Jun 21, 2013 3:47 pm
by FRaKh • 320 Posts

The motion is correct.....forearm is rotating correctly..


“A World Without String Is Chaos”

Rudolf Smuntz
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#172

RE: SAROD

in PB Guitarstudio FORUMS Sun Jun 23, 2013 6:26 pm
by John567 • 156 Posts

If your commenting on me, FRaKh, thanks. Sarod can be a bit confusing... :D

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#173

RE: SAROD

in PB Guitarstudio FORUMS Mon Jun 24, 2013 1:50 am
by pebberbrown • 876 Posts

"student" - not sarod looks like alternate.
You are missing the swan curve.

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#174

RE: SAROD

in PB Guitarstudio FORUMS Mon Jun 24, 2013 5:01 am
by NicholasJacquet (deleted)
avatar

At this point for me sarod feels less about the flutter and more about the weirdo jumping bean interaction with the strings...Not sure if that is a bad thing or not. Sarod is such fun/
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jtaaUYbm0jE&feature=youtu.be


Last edited Mon Jun 24, 2013 5:01 am | Scroll up

#175

RE: SAROD

in PB Guitarstudio FORUMS Mon Jun 24, 2013 7:24 am
by diegopaudyal • 91 Posts

Nick
I don't see any point on your video man. I hear the metronome click but not the guitar. Turn the volume up bro!

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